1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

"Surely, you must be joking" for Capitulation?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by TheMeInTeam, Jun 25, 2009.

  1. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,854
    From immortal U (the 2nd Sury one, as of this post current), spoilered in case you're playing that since it's late-game.

    Spoiler :


    What? I've seen this once or twice before, but WHY does this message appear in reference to capitulation? Nations far, far stronger than this asp-hat just ate it and became my vassals. In fact, one of my vassals wound up grabbing 3 of his cities while I only got 1 (he was a former vassal of my target until he broke free). I capped his MASTER, and his master's other vassal. He was either the weakest or possibly 2nd/3rd weakest civ on the planet...and my power was so huge by itself that I probably had over 6x this idiot's power.

    He was well below average power obviously, but then again this isn't that accursed "we're doing fine on our own" BS routine by the AI. It's something nonsensical instead. Why am I joking? Is it because you're already bending over too far, AI?

    Anyway, I won the game easily of course, but this made it annoying to finish domination so I took UN...hardly a big deal in a game where you have over 300 industrial units but still. I'm curious as the mechanics of this nonsense ---> since when did utterly bent over AIs just decide they don't wanna cap?
     
  2. Tatran

    Tatran Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    4,184
  3. Volapyk

    Volapyk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    224
    I have seen it a few time before, and though I have in no way looked into the code behind it. The pattern suggest it happens when you are so powerful compared to them they know they will never get free, usually you can solve it by just taking a few more of their cities.
     
  4. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    9,633
    Location:
    Mountain View, California
    It looks like he thinks he's doing better in the war than you are. This check is performed if the power check hasn't denied you already:

    Code:
    if (AI_getWarSuccess(eTeam) + 4 * GC.getDefineINT("WAR_SUCCESS_CITY_CAPTURING") > GET_TEAM(eTeam).AI_getWarSuccess(getID()))
    {
    	return DENIAL_JOKING;
    }
    
    WAR_SUCCESS_CITY_CAPTURING is 10 by default. The war success numbers just add up the wins and losses of units and cities.

    WAR_SUCCESS_DEFENDING: 3
    WAR_SUCCESS_ATTACKING: 4
    WAR_SUCCESS_UNIT_CAPTURING: 1 (Workers/Settlers)
    WAR_SUCCESS_CITY_CAPTURING: 10

    So yes, the solution is to take more cities. If you both start out at 0, you can see that it takes 40 success points assuming you win every battle and lose no cities. All losses must be offset by equal gains.
     
  5. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,854
    No...I'm so strong the one remaining free civ in the game would fail a DoW check on me due to my power, so there's no way it would join in.

    Looks like once again the vassal mechanics fail. My own WS was probably under 40, because I only captured 1 city (I certainly had the lead, but not by much there).

    My vassals captured 3 cities however, which is why I could only take one.
     
  6. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,899
    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    This happened to me in my last game. It has to be the 40 points check system. I took 2 more cities, and he was happy to capitulate.
     
  7. theskibum

    theskibum Brewer of Oatmeal Stout

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2005
    Messages:
    790
    Location:
    PDX
    @ TMIT

    Could...no should you not have just pounded him into oblivion?? Surely it couldn't have taken that much longer?:goodjob:
     
  8. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,854
    Than a UN resolution a couple turns later? Nah. I was still at war when I won. I didn't have any navy at all so I just said hell with it.
     
  9. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    So if I understand the function calls correctly, shouldn't damage that your vassal inflicts on the enemy count towards the capitulation calculation? Or do they not count as part of your team for this calculation?
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,854
    They don't. If they did he would have capped.

    AFAIK vassals matter very little for wartime decisions unless they border your target and pass the "land target" threshold, after which even if they're otherwise useless their effect is pronounced.
     
  11. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2006
    Messages:
    6,954
    Location:
    New York City
    MIT, this was an issue in the Julius Caesar RPC. I never got a good reason why, but it's happened before.
     
  12. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    So, let me see....

    If TMIT had simply used 2 or 3 tacs and killed 15 units , he would be willing to vassal? That sounds cheesy......
     
  13. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,854
    They wouldn't even have to kill units. Nukes are worth a fixed 10 WS (IIRC, DanF told me not too long ago that this was to prevent farming huge WS from nuking big stacks)...so 2-3 would probably have been enough.

    But since I was backwards once I went into $$$ buy mode, I banned them. (I eventually caught up again, since 3.19 vassals always trade techs w/ master and therefore I could just BUY a monopoly tech off one guy and broker it for rapid catchup).
     
  14. shyuhe

    shyuhe Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2006
    Messages:
    6,062
    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    @TMIT - OT but how much do techs cost to buy (beaker -- coin ratio)?
     
  15. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,854
    1:1 as far as I can tell. Not bad if all you have are gold multipliers mostly and you can trade the bought tech, but usually terrible as anything other than balancing a trade :p.
     
  16. EmperorFool

    EmperorFool Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Messages:
    9,633
    Location:
    Mountain View, California
    Yes, 10 per nuke. I didn't check if it counted the killed units, but probably not. Otherwise there'd be no point to adding an additional 10 for the method of destruction.

    And vassals are not part of your team. They are still on their own team. Two players are on the same team if either they start as a team or they sign a PA.
     
  17. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    24,854
    Vassals are still a factor in wars. The fact that the current capitulation system has a "skeleton coding" feel and that it's based on factors which can lead to ridiculous stupid outcomes (worldbuilder deleting your own vassal raising the odds of capitulation for one) tells me (and everyone else, hopefully) that this feature is in need of some work.
     
  18. Whiskey_Lord

    Whiskey_Lord Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2008
    Messages:
    2,163
    It's really too bad that you can't say to them "I'm not joking, and don't call me Sherly" then proceed to make them capitulate anyway.
     
  19. DanF5771

    DanF5771 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Messages:
    1,194
    This usually isn't and probably wasn't the problem. You only need to kill 8 units and capture 1 city (or just kill 10 units, or fire 4 nukes :bowdown::nuke:) while avoiding any losses of your own to get them to capitulate (provided you are strong enough and they are weak enough plus you have either double their land or pop).

    This was most likely the problem, as capitulation to a team that has not done the most damage is discouraged. The difference between your vassal's WS and your own WS is counted towards your target's WS. --> You could have avoided this great WS of your vassal by telling him to attack other cities once a city is "ripe for capture".
     
  20. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

    Joined:
    May 19, 2006
    Messages:
    13,818
    Location:
    Lisbon, Portugal
    Lovely....

    So, asking for your vassals to do something in a war actually can make capping a foe harder or impossible..... Nice mechanism, and a good reason to keep vassals, indeed ..... :gripe: [/TMIT rant]
     

Share This Page