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Survey: Best Leaders

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Hesha, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

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    There is, but I think I have to share it with you guys. I'm in hospital at the moment, but when I'm out on Monday or Tuesday, I can access my poll results!

    Understandable. Would you be okay to just break the ties in your original list and I come up with a suggestion for the 30 bottom based on other people's lists?
     
  2. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I don't quite understand on what foundation we are supposed to establish our leader ranking. Is it the (subjective) game experience piled up during many years or rather a "scientific" approach like AI survivor championships etc....? My own experience cannot be objective, I had my first EMP win with Charly, another perfect IMM victory with Charly, several IMM dominations with Mao and most of my deity wins with Sury. So would I objectively deduct that Charly, Mao and Sury are the best leaders or PRO/EXP the best traits in the game? Not really :crazyeye: Besides that, everyone has its own game style, I remember from a @TheMeInTeam video that he was trying to maximize the benefits from PRO, but for most players it will still remain a horrible trait that will maybe save your life in 1 of 50 cases. Imo, the type of victory should also come into play, because some "bad" leaders and UBs can give huge benefits towards a science/cultural victory. I have tried to fill out the list, but too many parameters inter-influence each other. I guess I appreciate more the concrete discussion in a given forum game, as you can see the whole picture there and learn what trait/UU/UB help(s) in what kind of situation.
     
  3. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I just read the summary from the AI survivor championship Final games: Season 1 was won by Justinian (2.Zara, 3. Sury), Season 2 by Hyana (2. Cyrus, 3. Pacal), Season 3 not completed yet. It's definitely a different thing as the AI is worse at trading, they settle many GPs, they build units just because they have nothing better to do, etc... So traits like PHI are certainly not really leveraged by them.
     
  4. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

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    Just a brief answer here... if I thought there was an objective answer, I wouldn't run a survey, but have a discussion / analysis instead. The question is too multi-varied to yield a completely fact based result. You example is a little hyperbolic, I think. Even if you small sample size heavily features Charly, you can probably tell (even subjectively) that other traits would have made those wins even easier. But yes, I am asking for your reasoning / gut feeling all in one mix, not a provable, scientific analysis.

    Basically just answer the question like this: If all you know is the parameters of the game (standard size, normal speed, fractar, NHNE, all victories enabled) and that you have to win the match, who would you rather play as? For most people the answer will be Huayna Capac - but then the second in line already varies quite heavily. And then just work your way down.

    And don't make it too hard for yourself. I am fully aware that if I asked anyone of you today and again next week, your responses would probably be off in at least 5-10 positions. Frankly, I don't care much, if you rate Roosevelt at 49 or 38. Any single poll will likely be evened out by others, so what I am interested is to see those that are consistently ranked top 10 or bottom 10, etc.
     
  5. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Ok, you know, I haven't played everyone and in some cases, I could only reckon if he is good or bad. I would definitely do that later with more experience in the wide field.
     
  6. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

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    Sure! I don't expect people to have played all the leaders extensively. I mean... once you have played a FIN leader, you are bound to figure out that FIN is a good trait - doesn't take you to play all FIN leaders to realise that.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    I'd estimate AI behaviors are a better indicator of its performance than traits, and it can be pretty different just from the weights given to each leaderhead.

    BTS 3.19 unduly nerfed protective and introduced a bug in overflow that was never fixed alongside the attempt to fix the "exploit" of overflow gold. It remains a weak trait overall, just by the nature of the surrounding mechanics. I guess you could go for some odd espionage --> castles --> steal tech plays by stacking modifiers to base mission cost that way and absorb parity wars until it's time to draft rifles and whip cannons, but this hardly makes it GOOD.
     
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  8. zoiks

    zoiks Chieftain

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    I'm not as technical as most people in this thread (good to read, though) so I can only answer as an Emperor player. I see this question as "who am I most likely to win with".

    That's probably Augustus. I think praets are the best UU in the game. Get them quickly and ravage the AI until longbows. Even then, with siege, they're still effective. I can normally get two AIs in this period. Once their days of dominance are over, rifling comes in and upgraded praets give you CR3 rifles which combined with a bit of siege gives 90% combat odds vs practically anyone.

    So praets plus Augustus having quick settlers (to settle the iron as soon as its discovered) and 100%+ GG emergence (as you're warring constantly) and it's a huge leg-up to victory. Two eras of dominance and by then there should be enough cities in your empire to coast to the end.
     
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  9. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    That's a good approach to those questions @zoiks . I wonder why Augustus and not Julius? Does the potential failgold help to tech faster towards IW? With Julius, you could settle cheaper (and more) cities if you play a map where Iron is only difficult to get.
     
  10. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I did put AC (10) over JC (16), because I think IND is better than ORG. Julius does have a bit more synergy, I admit that. Praetorian was among the hardest UU:s for me to evaluate and I'd probably put the Roman leaders a bit lower now and think they are roughly equal between each other.
     
  11. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    IND has probably a better synergy with the Forum, while ORG helps to claim more resources (and also Iron if not available). So if we assume a complete random fractal map (and not a NC game where the unique resource is always nearby), I would give Julius almost the same credit as Augustus. In a hand-picked map, Augustus is definitely stronger, especially when there are wonderbuilding resources too.
    Without their UU, I don't think that any of the Roman Leaders would be considered top 30, rather bottom third. In this regard, they are completely similar to China. Rome has slightly better traits, while China has better starting techs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  12. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Oh absolutely at the very bottom, not even close to top 30. Weak traits, weak UB, weak starting techs.
     
  13. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    Not an expert by any means, but to me ORG is one of the worst traits. The cheap lighthouses are nice, and if you start with fishing maybe there's some merit to an earlier GLH, but other than that I don't see much value in it. CH aren't built most of the time, games are often decided before factories are relevant, and lighthouses are pretty cheap to begin with. I used to think ORG was basically a free courthouse with -50% city maintenance, but it's actually civic maintenance. In the earlier stages of the game especially this does nothing for you. Instead of paying 1G for slavery I'm paying 0.5G and having it rounded up to 1? fantastic!

    IND on the other hand can be really useful, whether you want a cheap mids or just some failgold.
     
  14. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I don't think it's only -50% civic maintenance. Try settling 2nd city with an ORG leader slider@100%, it costs often 1:gold: less than for non-ORG leaders, so there is some discount for city maintenance too. But you are right in that it's not a great trait.
     
  15. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Again, it depends on the map and on the leader. Mehmed wit a couple of coastal cities builts LH and Granary in no time and grows his early cities big (when there is enough happiness). ORG helps always while FIN must work the commerce tiles. I don't consider it weak, you can work with that. Funny thing is that you don't need the CH though, because cities are cheaper anyway, so there is less cost to reduce. I know it tells -50% civic upkeep, but cities are effectively cheaper.
     
  16. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @sampsa that's weird as hell. I just tested ORG vs non-ORG, settled a city 3 tiles to the right of the capital, and the city maintenance both times said 1.26, The civic maintenance said 0 per turn, and yet the ORG leader was -1 while the non-org leader was -2. Something's screwy with the description of that civic(or maybe the rounding is just playing tricks on me).
     
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  17. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    That's how it seems to work, but I've never investigated it so don't really know why.
     
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  18. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    I remember from later game stages that cities often cost less than they would under normal circumstances (like -4 instead of -8).
     
  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I want to give ORG credit because it's a somewhat safe trait.
    It helps you come back if you screw up. :)
    Cheap courthouses if you crash your economy.
    Savings in city upkeep which can be important if you are later in the game, but still have not aquired a dominant position.
    And then half-price factories, which are really good as they are so expensive and difficult to get up.

    The problem is mostly that it yields so little in the early game. Half price lighthouses are nice on certain maps but not all, and it's rather bleak compared to half price granaries (EXP) which gives you a huge boost in the early game, but is then quite marginal in the late game.
    Getting stuff early instead of late is important, and that is what holds ORG back.
     
  20. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    ? Augi with IND + IMP and mining + fishing strikes me as good leader even without Praets.
     

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