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Survey: Best Leaders

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Hesha, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Same is true for Cre, if i need resis from 2nd ring it's really good.
    If not we could get into a discussion how important cheaper libraries are, in all games.

    Or Fin, if i start with corn, cows and copper where will i get an extra early commerce from?
    This topic can be bended much, but will always come down to playstyle.
    If somebody prefers expansion over wonders, they will rate Ind lower.
    If Lain i.e. talked about how much he prefers other traits over Ind, and then goes ahead and builds GLH or Pyras in many games, i question that.
    It's why i called this one trend, i know that many follow his games, and i wonder how different things would be if he advocated pro-Ind.
     
  2. earthy

    earthy Warlord

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    @Fippy

    Lain sure made IND look pretty damn strong in that De Gaulle game(NC 208)
     
  3. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    ha..in the few LPs I've seen of Lain's, he rushing out the Mids and sweating it. Not sure how anyone could think of IND as bad. IMO easily in top 3 or 4 traits.
     
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  4. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Well, pretty sure he has stone when going for Mids. Mids with stone+IND is 200:hammers: and Mids with stone is 250:hammers:. Of course it's a sizeable difference in the early game, but are those times enough to make it a top 3/4 trait? Dunno. If you are not emotional about it you can like Mids and dislike IND. :)
     
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  5. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    Except CRE allows you to optimize city placements and speed up your game quite a bit 99% of the time. It's also a big boost for early wars. And it may allow you to keep some tiles you'd otherwise lose because of cultural pressure. And all these usually bad ocean fish spots suddenly become very attractive.
    FIN adds commerce to Coast, Lakes, RiverIvory, RiverHorse, unimproved river wine. Even on a super low commerce map with no rivers, building grass FIN cottages can help you out a lot. It generally adds 10-20% to your research rate all the way until the Industrial Era.

    It's not about preference, these traits simply have a much bigger impact on the game.
     
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  6. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Statements like these traits have a much bigger impact are simply subjective and serve no purpose.
    It's not like i started playing this game yesterday.
     
  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @earthly
    Yes, thats about it. here is a decent map to practice it on if you like.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-lxx-sulieman-of-the-ottomans.415744/

    Also have to get construction for the engineering bulb ofcourse.
    And yes, it can certainly be problematic, but when you steamroll right at a strong AI with a doomstack of xbows/pikes/trebs and some riffraff and bombard and strike castleless cities at 75% odds with the first treb, crushing everything and then following up with 99% odds with the unit of your choice, then you know it was worth it. :)

    Does absolutely not work on all maps, but it's certaily a technique that one should try out.
     
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  8. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    And always gets a heart attack when the wonder screen tells "Pyramids built by [civilization played by Lain]" .... :nuke:
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  9. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    If IND is really so average like stated here, I wonder why for most people HC is the top 1 leader? Sure, the UB is really really good (mini-creative trait), but starting techs average, quechua not really needed (you can also fogbust with normal warriors, and what serious player will proudly announce "hey, I have quechua-rushed my first neighbour, isn't that awesome?") and there are other FIN guys. Following the discussion here, I get the idea that CRE maybe also EXP are better than IND (so Pacal or Willem must be equally strong) but I never see them being mentioned best leader of the game.
     
  10. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    You are severely underrating quechua.

    Also, if you opened Pedro's spreadsheet you see that he has Elizabeth, Gandhi and HC tied for 1st. That was intended for quick speed though.
     
  11. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    For being safe from barbs or for choking someone?
     
  12. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Certainly those too.
    Everyone playing slower speed certainly, but even assuming we are talking about normal speed, they can easily take out enemy capitals.
     
  13. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Ok, maybe not underrating them, but simply refusing to use them for that purpose. If i assume not to use them for a any kind of rush (because the poor AI is not smart enough to counter them with warriors), I could also live without them. Life will be easier against barbs, agreed. Ok.... so HC has good potential, but it wouldn't make me proud to abuse that.

    Edit: However, most of HC advantages seem to be early-game. Besides FIN.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
  14. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I understand that you refuse to use them, but I don't really understand why you were assuming everyone else does the same... :crazyeye: So yes, that's why HC is the strongest leader, now you know.
     
  15. drewisfat

    drewisfat Prince

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    The scary thing is that if you ignore UUs HC is still the best leader... and by a big margin
     
  16. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    If I think about it, there is strong synergy between FIN bringing you to the key techs that allow wonder failgold (what makes you even richer). Other FIN leaders will never use their trait when the economy is too weak and most of the wonders are already built when a tech is discovered. Also you save hammers on monuments, & claim more land.
     
  17. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Good question. Certainly assuming that everyone looks for challenges. Maybe a quechua-rush can be challenging too. I did it and it felt stupid, not learning anything about the game itself.
     
  18. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    My solution is to simply not play HC :lol:, but I still definitely think he is the easiest leader, mostly because of very strong UU+UB. IND is not able to spoil it. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
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  19. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

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    Imagine there was a IND/PHI leader w/o fishing in the game. He would rush wonders like GLib and Parthenon while producing super-fast GS/GE in a row to bulb MC/Machi/Eng with....
     
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  20. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

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    I used to avoid HC too because "it's too easy, it's not fair". But then I played a few Inca starts on Normal/Quick and realized that Q-rushes are not that straightforward (broke my teeth a few times). You don't always have flatland Gandhi as a neighbor. You can't let the AI hook up any early strategic resource, which means you need to scout properly and often a bit of luck. Sometimes, you have to declare earlier just to prevent them from hooking up Copper/Horses, and then can't take a ceasefire until you have taken that city or the rush is over. There are many, many things that can make a Q-rush fail (except on Marathon).
    I agree that HC is the strongest leader, and that the perspective of having the game "won" by T50 (which realistically only happens on a third of the fractal maps) is not enticing to everybody, but I find optimizing an "easy" map just as challenging/rewarding as winning a tough one.

    On a sidenote, I think IND has a nice synergy with the Q-rush. The capitals you capture usually have a lot of forests (because the AI always under-chop). It also times well with the Aesthetics tech path on maps with lots of trading partners. And in seldom cases you can even do nasty Oracle stuff (oracle HBR and keep rolling?).

    Edit: on the other hand, Q-rush often rules out TGW, Mids & GLH, which are the wonders that usually benefit the most from IND.
     
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