1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Survey: Best Leaders

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Hesha, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Tobiyogi

    Tobiyogi King

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2018
    Messages:
    819
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Berlin, GE
    I wonder what you would think about Washington, because he is candidate for my personal Top 20. No-one has ever mentioned him so far. I appreciated him a lot when jumping from Monarch to Imm (took a step back to Emp later, when i lost too often), because his attributes seemed to neutralize all the unpleasant health & happiness issues that a player suddenly faces on a higher level. So a very convenient leader. Also he is perfect for Isolation (one of the best I think, including the FISH start) what can also happen on fractal maps. Last but not least, his EXP trait is quite versatile when it comes to constructing a granary in a low-hammer city (coastal, floodplains) while keeping the health up high when growing bigger. So in certain surroundings maybe even equal to Lincoln, imo.

    Edit: another advantage is that you can trade more resources for Gold and relief your economy. it happens regularly, that AIs only need the kind of resource you cannot afford to give away. With exp + cha, this won't probably happen.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2020
  2. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    All the three american leaders have solid traits, and their starting techs are alright.
    But their UU and UB is irrelevant which drags them down abit.
     
    sampsa likes this.
  3. prettification

    prettification Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2020
    Messages:
    15
    Not really the best (is there any? It depends so much on the map and the game), but I'd make a case for Asoka. He is quite underrated in my opinion, I almost never hear of him. But fast workers plus Spi plus Organized bestow incredible flexibility and ease of play.
     
  4. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,440
    Location:
    Finland
    For me, Washington is a very middling leader. Asoka is still very good due to fast worker, even if he is just a "poor man's Gandhi".
     
  5. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2008
    Messages:
    21,630
    Yep, I'd put Wash in the middle of pack, so to speak, but still solid. Other than the obvious Toku, I often recommend Wash for new players learning the game since he has two solid, but mostly passive traits (i.e., you don't have to overthink them). And, of course, the uniques are inconsequential. I'd go so far as to say Wash is the most neutral or vanilla leader in the game.
     
    Tobiyogi likes this.
  6. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    10,101
    Location:
    Chicago
    I started a game the other day where I was IND and started on Stone. I was just off a large area of tundra so it would have taken too many warriors to fog bust. So I said screw it and build a wonder I rarely build. The GW, then I looked up and saw SH was like 4 turns and I wasn't creative so what the heck. Of course I paid the price with my first two GP being a spy and a prophet, so I figured I try a little espionage since I VERY rarely ever consider it. Especially since I was playing no tech trading. So of course a neighbor settled close so I tried to beeline CS through Code, and took alpha on the side.
    WOW, the discount for shrine and closeness made the tech stealing so cheep I got like 10 techs or more for my GSPY. Including Horseback Riding, monarchy, feudalism, compass, calendar, aesthetics, iron working. It allowed me to really be-line up the liberalism path. I really had no clue how much those discounts were worth. I can see myself building these useless wonders again if the circumstances seem to warrant it. It was certainly an different game for me.
     
    Major Tom and krikav like this.
  7. earthy

    earthy Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2019
    Messages:
    234
    I'm curious how everyone rates the Khmer.. Hunting leaves a bit to be desired, but the early game is still nice with cheap granaries, cheap libraries, cheap workers, free border pops, and 1 tech away from BW.
     
    krikav likes this.
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    I have no problem at all starting with hunting.
    The scout is nice to have and you can always go AH first.
    It's not at all as bad as fishing or myst imho. It's not ag/tw/mining, but it's still perfecly OK.

    And exp/cre is a very nice combo, easy to get good cities up and running quickly.
     
    earthy likes this.
  9. earthy

    earthy Warlord

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2019
    Messages:
    234
    I've been fooling around a bit on deity lately and I find hunting starts make fogbusting a bit hard. At least a warrior can fortify on a forest hill and hold his own against an archer if your settler is on the way to settle the 2nd/3rd city. The scout just has to yield and run away, and then you delay the settler and open the door for more barb spawns Not a big issue if you have a forest PH or something to get an early warrior out, but when lacking a good hammer tile it really seems to mess me up.

    as an example:
    Spoiler :


    double wet corn looked like an amazing start to me, but how the hell do we get warriors out with only 1:hammers: tiles? almost have to improve a mine after the first corn just so you can fogbust.

    ragnar.png
     
    krikav likes this.
  10. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,392
    Location:
    Sweden
    @earthy Well, THAT hammer poor cities are rare. :) Usually there are some forested plains or something to work to get a pair of warriors out.

    But even still, there you start to build a warrior T15 when the worker is out, your first corn is improved T20 and by then you already have 5 hammers into the warrior (and 15/22 F) Two turns later when warrior is at 7/15 you get another pop which can work a 2F1H tile and then you get a warrior out when the second corn is improved.
     
  11. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,440
    Location:
    Finland
    I ranked him as 13th as I value fast start highly. I'm too OK with a scout. It allows some more initial scouting and later you can play cat'n'mouse with barbs. Unfortunately you are the mouse.
     
    Major Tom likes this.
  12. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    407
    I'm in the process of analysing the results now. I have 6 completed surveys, one semi-completed (just top 20) and one that only gave 1st place to HC. I think I'm only going to average the completed ones.

    Only one person didn't choose HC as 1st (and put him on 5th instead), but Willem instead. Could this person please PM me? I just want to make sure the surves isn't a piss-take, because the answers seem to differ quite a bit from other (for example rating Alexander at 11 when everyone else puts him between 31 and 49. No problem, opinions may differ, I just want to check with you!
     
  13. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,129
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    I did the top-like-20, putting a guy like Shaka in the top10, Wang and Charlemange very well placed, on par or above the likes of Mansa, Willem, Suleiman, Pericles, Peter.
    Egypt and Gandhi in the top5. Gilgamesh and Catherine near the top. Darius bottom of the pack ; likely to have placed Cyrus better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
    Hesha likes this.
  14. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    407
    It's a shame you didn't finish the list, then, because you seem to be bucking the trend here. Darius is currently ranked 2nd behind HC!

    Edit: Do you want me to give you a chance to complete the remaining positions? I can PM you a spreadsheet...
     
  15. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,129
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    Darius is n°1 for settler difficulty space race, where you pop settlers out of goody huts. That's a niche use.
    I'd choose most CRE/EXP leaders over him (not Zara...), ranging from Emperor difficulty.
     
  16. Hesha

    Hesha Prince

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2011
    Messages:
    407
    I understand, I wasn't arguing for him, I was just stating the fact that the other guys who participated, most of whom seem to be pretty decent players, have ranked him quite highly. Funny thing is, that nobody actually ranked him as high as no 2. The best score he got was 3, but all the leaders voted 2nd had such bad placements from other participants, that they were pulled down to a worse position. At the moment HC is at 1st position and 2nd position is shared by Darius and Hatshepsut.
     
  17. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,129
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    Oh, okay, that's interesting. Hattie second I can absolutely understand. I may have ranked Ramesses and Gandhi above but it's a close toss-up.

    I didn't mean to be derogatory, regarding Darius. I understand he has an excellent reputation.
    Thing is : if I want to pay everything full cost (which I don't), I'd rather play as Elizabeth.
    If I want to make use of the Immortals, Cyrus is better positioned.
    Darius sort of "has it all" but not really because everything's so expensive with him. He starts slow and dies easy.
    Charlemagne, otoh, sort of "has nothing" but he dies hard, expands well and the Rathaus is an endgame all star. In a way, they both end up in the same place but start from opposite situations. (And thus I like Charly better but, granted, it's a matter of taste and maps you play.)

    Reason why I ranked Cathy, Gilgamesh and even Shaka so high is because they're well-rounded. You don't want them for HoF but they'll do well any map, any day.
     
  18. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,440
    Location:
    Finland
    It's not about HOF play at all. I think you were supposed to assume deity fractal normal NHNE, which are probably the most common settings. To me, it's strange to say that if you want to make use of the immortals, Cyrus is better positioned. While that is true, Darius has them as well and shouldn't be penalized for not being Cyrus.
     
  19. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    4,129
    Location:
    Cantaloupe Island
    With IMP/CHA and Immortals, Cyrus is arguably the ultimate warmonger.

    Darius has Immortals but, in comparison, he has 2 less cities to produce them from and his die better.
    Immortals are great, sure, but so are any AGG axemen. War Chariots are over the top.
     
  20. Wrathful

    Wrathful Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2016
    Messages:
    155
    I took the survey yesterday. Here's what I ended up with, along with some commentary:

    1. HC
    2. Gandhi (fast worker)
    3. Pacal (guaranteed barb defense)
    4. Elizabeth (best traits)
    5. Asoka (a weaker Gandhi)
    6. Sitting Bull (a weaker Pacal)
    7. Ramesses (powerful but map-dependent UU)
    8. Hatshepsut (I prefer IND over CRE)
    9. Mansa Musa (great economy, can fall back on Skirmishers if a DOW is imminent)
    10. Darius (basically a lesser Egypt)
    11. Cyrus (one of the best warmongers)
    12. Willem (versatile economy builder)
    13. Pericles (one of the best synergies in the game with CRE + odeon; fastest math bulber; extremely potent construction rushes)
    14. De Gaulle
    15. Louis (subjective; I prefer CHA over CRE)
    16. Hannibal (strong techer; fairly map-dependent)
    17. Suryavarman (good no matter what situation he ends up in; underrated uniques)
    18. Shaka (top-tier UB; everything else good; prevents a DOW from an AI Shaka)
    19. Napoleon
    20. Augustus Caesar (godly with iron; mediocre without)
    21. Julius Caesar (can’t fall back on wonders like AC)
    22. Suleiman (no weaknesses; no great strengths either)
    23. Mehmed (pretty much equal to Suleiman I think)
    24. Lincoln (great traits; decent starting techs; irrelevant uniques)
    25. Peter (same as Lincoln but worse traits)
    26. Victoria (worse traits and starting techs than the previous two but better uniques)
    27. Wang Kon (always has something to fall back on; can go for PRO archers + hwachas; can try for an early wonder; can play the long game with FIN + Seowons)
    28. Qin Shi Huang (best starting techs; Cho-Ko rush available; can go for wonders; poor UB)
    29. Mao Zedong (IND > EXP, but that’s a matter of opinion)
    30. Gilgamesh
    31. Washington (good traits, ok starting techs)
    32. Joao (land grabber with poor uniques)
    33. Catherine (on par with Joao)
    34. Zara Yaqob (he’s ok)
    35. Isabella (tough one to place; the starting techs really drag her down)
    36. Frederick (PHI and some other mediocre stuff)
    37. Alexander (PHI keeps him afloat)
    38. Ragnar (similar to Alex; FIN is worse than PHI; map-dependent)
    39. Bismarck (I honestly didn’t know where to put him; I wouldn’t call him bad, but he’s not that great either)
    40. Kublai Khan (a rather lame warmonger; very map-dependent)
    41. Roosevelt (a one-trick pony; the other Americans are much more versatile)
    42. Hammurabi (good starting techs and that’s it)
    43. Churchill (CHA and a good UU)
    44. Stalin
    45. Brennus (tough guy to rate; great traits and not much else)
    46. Genghis Khan (a very lame warmonger; map dependent like his grandson)
    47. Justinian (good traits; everything else is bad)
    48. Montezuma (decent traits)
    49. Boudica (similar quality of traits as Monty, but worse UB)
    50. Saladin (SPI, mediocre UB and that’s it)
    51. Charlemagne
    52. Tokugawa

    I was surprised with my results. For example, I always thought of the Germans as at least average, but comparing them with the other leaders has made me question that. Compare them to the Ottomans for instance. Their traits are of similar quality, but the Ottomans have better starting techs and much better uniques. If we place the Ottomans in the middle of the pack, it follows that the Germans should be somewhere in the mid-30s.

    This sort of thinking is how I came up with the entire list. Given a leader, I looked for a leader of similar quality and decided if they were better or worse, then sorted them accordingly.
     
    sampsa likes this.

Share This Page