Sweden Diety Diplomatic Victory. Which GP do I keep, which do I gift

[AmericanDestiny]

Diety (Former Immortal Player)
Small Continents Plus
Marathon
Diplomatic Victory

I know the first GP to be gifted should be Great Generals, but Hakkapeliitta...

I never use Great Admirals so they will be gifted.

I always settle Great Scientists until Industrial, then lightbulb them. So a big no on gifting GS.

Great Writers will be used for Great Works, to avoid Ideological unhappiness from civs with high tourism yield.

I see very little value in Great Artists and Musicians in Diplomatic VC, so I'm thinking I can gift them.

Great Merchants and Great Engineers I'm conflicted.

A few other questions: -What should be my tech path after getting Oracle and NC?
-Besides exploration and meeting all the civs as early as possible, what should I prioritize?
- What are the biggest adjustments I must make switching from Immortal to Diety?
- Is diplomatic victory the only VC in which gold is more valuable then food (science)?
- Wonders?
-Policy Tree: Open, finish, or ignore honor? (it will interfere with Tradition and Patronage)

 

[Browd]

Great Prophets (either those you generate or those you capture in wars) can be gifted, even if they've already been used for spread missions (as long as they have at least 1 spread mission left). So, consider using your own GPs to spread three times and then gift to a CS.

 

[AmericanDestiny]

Great Prophets (either those you generate or those you capture in wars) can be gifted, even if they've already been used for spread missions (as long as they have at least 1 spread mission left). So, consider using your own GPs to spread three times and then gift to a CS.

I generally frown upon exploits, but I may need to rely on them for diety.

 

[Resipsa]

-GW shouldn't be used for tourism; either gift or bulb for culture.
-Use GAs for Golden Ages once you are in the industrial era. You'll generate more gold.
-Don't generate GMerchants, you're only jamming up your scientist generation. Also trade missions are nearly as efficient and are more versatile than gifting the GM.
-Never gift GS or GE
-Admirals and all but one GG get gifted
-Great Musicians should always be gifted
Great Prophets spread religion 3 times and then gift also capture enemy Great Prophets and gift.

 

[BlackWizard]

I generally frown upon exploits, but I may need to rely on them for diety.

I wouldnt call gifting your own prophets to CS after spreading religion exploit. Captured Prophets however are more of a borderline

 

[mclericp]

I generally frown upon exploits, but I may need to rely on them for diety.

besides, on diety, the AI basically exploit the game

 

[klaskeren]

Capturing enemy GP is not at all abuse, gifting prophets is not abuse, its one of the few uses of the UA, the combination is certainly not abuse, its something you can plan for, and something you could do vs human player. If the AI is bad enough to sacrifice its prophets, then you should take advantage of this.

 

[Gustavus Rex]

I have a couple of deity Sweden diplo wins. Since im not really a deity player i do this sometimes to feel good about myself.

You can gift away more gp:s then you think when the goal is diplo and only diplo.

Some tips

-2-4 cities,

-get as many luxuries and tactics as the map offers. Give them for free to AI for friendship

-scout, scout, scout Find everything and everyone sooner rather then later.

-fill patronage , then focus on gold!

-get to printing press, get leaning tower. Try to get forbidden palace before or after.

-fill artist, writer and musician guilds and if needed, give everything away!

-if an AI is killed, recall him/her/them to life some turns before world leader vote.

-you can give away scientists as well when closing in on the world leader vote. You are going for diplo right?


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[topresch]

Clearly, a Swede should win Deity with Sweden It hurts, but I'm gonna play them now.

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[dragonxxx]

Gifting your own great prophets is generally bad idea. Instead of spending it for converting three cities better plant it as Holy Site. Doing so (if its early enough), will allow you to buy at least one GE at the end of the game to trigger a quest from a CS and in addition to build a Wonder, that some other CS wants ...

So unless you receive it as a late gift from the Patronage finisher, I really see no point in gifting it to CS

 

[Resipsa]

Gifting your own great prophets is generally bad idea. Instead of spending it for converting three cities better plant it as Holy Site. Doing so (if its early enough), will allow you to buy at least one GE at the end of the game to trigger a quest from a CS and in addition to build a Wonder, that some other CS wants ...

So unless you receive it as a late gift from the Patronage finisher, I really see no point in gifting it to CS

You aren't comparing apples to apples; gifting a GProphet means spreading your religion to three cities which could fulfill a CS quest too or help you maintain your level of influence with them since you degrade more slowly and you get essentially 1000 gold put toward influence.

I'm not real keen on working a bunch of holy sites in the mid to early late game anyway.

 

[dragonxxx]

You aren't comparing apples to apples; gifting a GProphet means spreading your religion to three cities which could fulfill a CS quest too or help you maintain your level of influence with them since you degrade more slowly and you get essentially 1000 gold put toward influence.

I'm not real keen on working a bunch of holy sites in the mid to early late game anyway.

Well, unless you play a heavy religion game, you rarely spawn a prophet, that needs to be placed somewhere. If u have good initial FPT, you pick pagoda/mosque etc. , so at the time you are done with buying em off + the initial missionary, industrial is here, and you can just save the faith. If your FPT is not that good, and you somehow manage to found a religion last (without faith buildings), odds are that you are not gonna have enough FPT to generate another prophet before industrial at all.

And making a sacred site right before industrial seems absolutely OK for me - way better than converting CS in the other half of the world If they are close, then odds are that they get the religion naturally anyway.

I guess that what you said has some implications, but they are not very common in my eyes. Planting it and having +6FPT (and later on 10, with the odds of producing culture too with the landmarks, and tourism (if u are going cultural)) is way way better 90% of the time

I only use GP for converting cities (my own), when a religion war starts, and Ethiopia or some other fanatic converts my cities if I have something special in my religion, that I cannot live without (like +15% production bonus).

 

[beetle]

Missed this one bit earlier:

Great Merchants and Great Engineers I'm conflicted.

Why keep the Great Merchants? Isn’t 90 influence better than 30 influence + 1000 gold? Plus, you don’t have to walk them, so not just the neighbor CS.

 

[dragonxxx]

Missed this one bit earlier:



Why keep the Great Merchants? Isn’t 90 influence better than 30 influence + 1000 gold? Plus, you don’t have to walk them, so not just the neighbor CS.

Because, with the 1000 gold you can buy more than 60 from that same CS if you wish.

 

[beetle]

Agree that GPr are rare, and that CS conversion quests take time. Still, I almost never plant them, especially not as Sweden. The limiting factor for me has been ideal spots for planting that were not taken by GS, GA (but I guess BNW opens those up). How much influence does a fulfilling a quest get you, 30 points?

Planting it and having +6FPT (and later on 10, with the odds of producing culture too with the landmarks, and tourism (if u are going cultural)) is way way better 90% of the time.

Instead of early missionaries, nowadays I wait for a GPr (as the first one after enhancing is less faith cost than two missionaries). So that’s one that can’t be planted anyway. I might need part of my next GPr to convert a puppetted city.

But I figure 120 points CS influence, even though it fades, is better than a faith tile that has a net cost of 2 food per turn. Sweden gets 180 CS influence out of that GPr. This is only considering friend status out the CS for 30 turns, but the CS quest might well put you in ally status. Plus the (again, temporary) founder benefits. I would like to see some math comparing planting to CS quests.

 

[beetle]

Because, with the 1000 gold you can buy more than 60 from that same CS if you wish.

Isn’t the nominal trade value 55 influence for 1000 gold? Of course, there are frequent buffs, and one might want influence with two ore three CS instead of just one. It could be worth 5 points just to have more flexibility.

 

[Resipsa]

Well, unless you play a heavy religion game, you rarely spawn a prophet, that needs to be placed somewhere. If u have good initial FPT, you pick pagoda/mosque etc. , so at the time you are done with buying em off + the initial missionary, industrial is here, and you can just save the faith. If your FPT is not that good, and you somehow manage to found a religion last (without faith buildings), odds are that you are not gonna have enough FPT to generate another prophet before industrial at all.

And making a sacred site right before industrial seems absolutely OK for me - way better than converting CS in the other half of the world If they are close, then odds are that they get the religion naturally anyway.

I guess that what you said has some implications, but they are not very common in my eyes. Planting it and having +6FPT (and later on 10, with the odds of producing culture too with the landmarks, and tourism (if u are going cultural)) is way way better 90% of the time

I only use GP for converting cities (my own), when a religion war starts, and Ethiopia or some other fanatic converts my cities if I have something special in my religion, that I cannot live without (like +15% production bonus).

I think some of this is analysis level dependant, if you don't have large fpt you can forget about a religion on Deity and even then Its a crap shot on whether you'll get a religious building by the time you found. Regardless IF you found a religion, and IF you cant spend the faith on buildings or a GE in industrial on forward you are better off spawning and using the prophet to convert 3 contested cities and then gifting for 90 points of influence rather than plopping down a religious site.

You'll be in the advanced mid game by the time a third GProphet is founded and the 6 faith for a 100 turns plus 10 faith at 30 turns is only 900 faith that's what you'll get from the site from mid-late game until the end of the game. So On turn 300 you might have accumulated enough from that site to buy your first GE. You can take that benefit and the possible fulfilling CS quest on turn 300 or you can possibly complete a CS Quest to spread religion up to 3 times plus you get 1000 gold toward CS influence around turn 150.

Converting neighboring CS is a great way to create a buffer zone between your religion and the Religion of another AI.

 

[dragonxxx]

Well, you are right - it depends Generally, I have played Sweden very little, and I have never used this ability tbh, as all games with them I tried a culture win, and there you basicly need every single great person.

I was talking more about GP and Holy Site in General. As far as I know, religion on Deity is not different than Immortal - I know its hard enough, and not something that you can always count on, unless you play some specific CIVs. Still its not uncommon to find last religion with 7-8 FPT (thats 2 shrines, 1 cs friend, and a pantheon giving small boost).

If you don't upgrade the religion, to have faith giving beliefs and skip building temples, for the around 100 turns between founding and Industrial, you can collect exactly as much as you need for enhancer and 1 additional prophet, short before industrial.

What if you do that with Celts? You can get early religion only with the forest around the 4 cities even if you dont have suitable faith giving pantheon. You can even skip Shrines ... Still, with around 10 FPT (after your expansion, 2 shrines, 2x2 + 2x1 faith per city from the UA) - you can found it around turn 60, and enhance turn 90 (at which point you rarely get 2nd set of buildings). For the remaining 80-90 turns:

20 to get a missionary
20 to get the first Pagoda - FPT becomes 12
17 to get second pagoda - fpt 14
14 to get third pagoda - fpt 16
12 to get fourth pagoda.
-
83 turns.

And soon after you are in Industrial. If you push a bit more, you will probably have an additional prophet, but I personally do not bother with Temples - too many hammers and 2gpt rarely sounds needed.

 

[beetle]

I personally do not bother with Temples - too many hammers and 2gpt rarely sounds needed.

One main benefit to temples IMHO is the Grand Temple NW, but no problem if that is a little late in the build queue. Once that is up, inquisitors are probably no longer needed. Also there are a couple follower beliefs that buff temples, if you get either of those, temples are well worth it.

 

[tetley]

If you capture an enemy Prophet, you might still want to spread religion with him, depending on what the religion is. For example, if that guy's religion has Holy Warriors, I'm spreading that guy to one of my secondary cities and buying myself some warriors.