[GS] Sweden Discussion Thread

I like Sweden, but...

I'm not sure I like them. They're certainly neat, but I kind of feel that if it's a "one per city" improvement maybe it should fall under some other mechanism instead (UB, or if you want them on the map, then maybe have them as like a completely unique district for the civ?). That's essentially what they're simulating - a district in that it's a tile that can't be swapped, so to me, at least having it that way makes it so you can't simply drop a new city, drop this tile improvement, and immediately have like a +10 culture tile. Seems way too strong to use up a single builder charge, and would be better as a cheap district that you had to build, I think.

To me, my favorite UI are the ones that are strong, but not OP, and that you want to spam but can't place everywhere. The Mekewap, Chemamull, Polder, or Kampung are ideal examples of UI to me - they're improvements that you do probably want to place on every tile that you can, but they're at least partially limited. Outback Station to me is too easy to place, and also gets too strong when you flood the land with them. And on the flipside, a lot of the other improvements are simply too weak, that even if you can spam them everywhere, they don't really help. Colossal heads are only useful to place on a tile that you can't put another improvement down on, and Kurgans are really only useful for the era points, for example.

I really dislike the one per city tile improvements.

Why isn't an Open Air Museum just a unique district? As in, a UD that doesn't replace any existing Districts. That would be much more interesting. Same with the Golf Course and Hokey Rink.

Indeed, I'm surprised the game doesn't have any "unique" districts yet that don't replace anything.

I don't like the culture based on terrain type. Just seems... silly. It doesn't really gel with the existing game mechanics. I'd rather have just seen +1 per culture per continent that your settled or something like that.

There's also a T3 Gov Plaza building that provides a similar benefit (4 generic slots for art). I thought the QB replaced that one initially, but it's actually T2 (and cheaper than the T2 GovPlaza buildings). Losing out on Grandmaster's Chapel and Intelligence Agency kind of sucks, but that's the card Sweden has been dealt. Getting both the QB and the Natural History Museum is, not gonna lie, pretty damn crazy and would more than make up for it.

On a similar note, I don't get why the Government Plaza buildings are buildings rather than districts you build adjacent to your Government Plaza. That would have made the Government Plaza and buildings much more impressive visually, would have created more city planning (given you also want to put normal districts adjacent to you GP too), and would have subtle encouraged more tall play (you'd need enough district slots).

On Krissy's special building ... I like that you'll be forced to choose between her building and e.g. Grand Master Chapel. I also like how it doubles up with the Natural History Museum. Interesting choices.
 
One more thing I feel I need to add, is how disappointed I am over the architecture choice. Still nothing even barely Scandinavian-looking, instead we get French castles and German cottages

I'm no architectural expert, but I've always thought Norway (and now Sweden?) should have its own city set.
I am equally disappointed and I very much agree. I've pointed out several times, both here on the forums and on the subreddit, how the generic Western European city set does not fit Norway at all, nor does it fit Sweden. Timber-framed buildings were never part of Norwegian and Swedish architectural history, other than stave churches, but they weren't exactly built for people to live in, as the generic city set buildings in-game are. There should definitely be a unique Scandinavian city set, preferably based on log houses and cabins, which actually have a long history in Scandinavia. Speaking from experience, "log-style" buildings can be seen very often in the countryside here in Norway. It should also speak volumes that Scandinavian (initially Swedish) settlers were responsible for this style of building appearing in North America.

At least Sweden seems to have gotten its own palace. England and Spain's palaces were updated in Rise and Fall, so I dearly hope that Norway will receive its own palace, too. The generic French one doesn't fit Norway - not just the Viking Age Norway represented in the game, but Norway in general.
 
For anybody complaining about how 'ugly' she is, I encourage them to actually research Kristina.

Her hair was legendarily unruly. In her autobiography she claimed midwives dropped her as a child, leading to her bent back and uneven shoulder that never healed correctly. She was known as bookish, hairy and somewhat unspphisticated. She cared little for being a leader and was obsessed with the pursuit of knowledge and art.

She's known for being a "tomboy". She rode like a man, dressed like a man and talked like a man.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina,_Queen_of_Sweden

I'd say they nailed it. They conveyed all of that really well in the model while avoiding making her grotesque or comical. I think she portrays exactly what she's supposed to and above all, looks INTERESTING.
 
I find it... lets say funny? ... that the first female leder is revealed, and people latch onto her appearence, saying she is not attractive enough or what ever... Like wtf

Edit: Btw I really like this civ! Not first civ I'll play, but at least the third I think! Good Job!

I do not think that people are latching on to that her appearence is not attractive enough, as anyone following Civ 6 knows that is wishful thinking based on previous female leaders, but rather that her face looks like a man's.
 
Honestly I don't like that they made a leader like Amanitore obese, while they could've made her slightly overweight but still attractive. But that's just preference, I suppose.

Indeed. Who you find attractive isn't necessarily who I find attractive isn't necessarily who the next person finds attractive.


That part that should be most disturbing is the number of people concerned with how hot a cartoon character in a video game is

Agreed. I want them to portray the confidence of leaders (which manifests in different ways). And I want them to be interesting characters to interact with during the game, as heads of state. For the most part, I think the art team at Firaxis has done a good job at this.
 
That part that should be most disturbing is the number of people concerned with how hot a cartoon character in a video game is

Not in my experience. The most disturbing thing is that people can not understand basic English and conflate two different things. Her face looks like a man's has nothing to do with how attractive she is.
 
It's a 3D rendering of a human being, to be surprised about people having opinions on her looks is like being surprised about people having an opinion on a statue or painting.

Is it offensive if I say that the Aphrodite of Milos is beautiful, for instance?
 
Six for six, imo. I feel that the civs this time around were really thought out in terms of distinguishing their gameplay from any other civ. They all more or less cover unexplored ground in terms of gameplay mechanics, which makes me excited for this expansion. Although I liked R&F, I don’t think it was the greatest in terms of new mechanics for civs (beyond loyalty and ages), whereas GS does. Looking forward to Feb 14.
The more I think about it, the more Sweden comes across as a walk-the-bases, paint-by-numbers civ.

I can't think of anything about Sweden that provides anything substantive in terms of unexplored gameplay. It's just a matter of playing as you would to win any game, only with superior options and fewer challenges. It's an Easy-Button civ.

Really stands far afield of the previously shown Mali and Inca.
 
The more I think about it, the more Sweden comes across as a walk-the-bases, paint-by-numbers civ.

I can't think of anything about Sweden that provides anything substantive in terms of unexplored gameplay. It's just a matter of playing as you would to win any game, only with superior options and fewer challenges. It's an Easy-Button civ.

Really stands far afield of the previously shown Mali and Inca.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. They NEED to win the Nobel peace prize, otherwise they're making their opponents stronger. They also get a substantial boost to climate differentiation between cities, which is completely new.

They also have no early game bonuses, so you start out weaker than other culture civs like Kongo, Greece, Rome, etc, but they come into their hot streak earlier than France and America. They are one of very few Medieval culture civs.

I think a civ whose bonuses can be taken by opponents is a new, interesting malus of sorts.
 
The more I think about it, the more Sweden comes across as a walk-the-bases, paint-by-numbers civ.

I can't think of anything about Sweden that provides anything substantive in terms of unexplored gameplay. It's just a matter of playing as you would to win any game, only with superior options and fewer challenges. It's an Easy-Button civ.

Really stands far afield of the previously shown Mali and Inca.
Well Sweden does have that terrain count thingy, as well as nobel prizes, so it kind of counts. It's not like Hungary have anything Mali-level special either.
 
Whoops, was so busy yesterday I forgot to check on this!

From where I sit, it's still better to pack cities as Sweden than to try and find that "perfect" city with multiple terrain types for the open-air museum. Most cities should be able to cover 2 or 3 of the terrain requirements, and working +4 or +6 culture/tourism is quite nice. But yeah you're still going to want to pack your cities because of the great scientist/engineer boosts.

Though I would argue that most of the better scientists and engineers are gone by the time the Industrial Era hits unless you're planning for a space victory later, which Sweden has no other bonuses toward. Still, Great People are Great People, and more means a stronger Diplo victory.

Speaking of the Industrial Era, I'm finding it not credible to both build Factories in most of your cities and also throw down the Peace Prize in the same era. I think it's much more likely you'll want to establish as many universities as you can before Industrial instead if you want to take the Peace Prize. If you can get a factory or two in your core cities, that's a bonus.

It's difficult to quantify the strength of 50 diplo power per GP because there's still not enough information for me to judge. Which is a shame because, regardless, it's clear that this civ is really tuned to take that victory.

Queen's Bibliotheque is interesting, though I'd be interested in the theorycrafters determining if adding extra Great Work slots is actually superior to Intelligence Agency, which I personally put in high regards as a government building. I guess by the time you're at that point though, you have a pretty decent idea of which victory type you're planning to go for, and if it's not Cultural then you can just not build the Bibliotheque.

The Carolean is quite good as long as you can survive with spears up to that point to upgrade. It's nice to finally see a UU in this expansion that actually has a bonus to strength. The Mandekalu Cavalry and Mountie, for example, aren't really impressive to me

Despite no direct bonus to Commercial Hubs, you're going to want them because you need to support internal trade routes to pump up resources to keep your theater squares, campuses, and IZs up to snuff, not to mention the gold cost to maintain those districts. So a lot of your cities will need to be at least pop 10 to be effective for all of Sweden's bonuses, which means food and amenities are going to be a big problem when trying to maintain this civ. And it'll be harder because one of those hexes you're working is just providing culture/tourism.

That's part of why Sweden isn't as overpowered as I've seen some say. Sweden has a lot of potential, but in practice, being able to use all of its bonuses in all of your cities is a pipe dream, even with careful planning.
 
Well Sweden does have that terrain count thingy, as well as nobel prizes, so it kind of counts. It's not like Hungary have anything Mali-level special either.
If anything, Hungary feels rather derivative of Netherlands. Instead of getting superior districts from river adjacency, they just get faster districts. More suitable for a quantity-over-quality approach, which is what Civ VI is mostly about.

But at least it's not an Easy-Button, paint-by-numbers affair, where the design essentially leads players by the nose on how to win.
 
If anything, Hungary feels rather derivative of Netherlands. Instead of getting superior districts from river adjacency, they just get faster districts. More suitable for a quantity-over-quality approach, which is what Civ VI is mostly about.

But at least it's not an Easy-Button, paint-by-numbers affair, where the design essentially leads players by the nose on how to win.

I think Pearl of the Danube feels like a spinoff of Egypt's Iteru UA.
 
I see where you're coming from, but I disagree. They NEED to win the Nobel peace prize, otherwise they're making their opponents stronger. They also get a substantial boost to climate differentiation between cities, which is completely new.

They also have no early game bonuses, so you start out weaker than other culture civs like Kongo, Greece, Rome, etc, but they come into their hot streak earlier than France and America. They are one of very few Medieval culture civs.

I think a civ whose bonuses can be taken by opponents is a new, interesting malus of sorts.
To my mind, the Nobel Prize challenge is a largely passive affair. Not a lot of interactivity in earning GP. Might run a project, might do a faith-but it ultimately leans into existing strengths or it does not.

As to their lack of early-game bonuses, this reminds of how all those years ago when I used to play Dungeons & Dragons, I would talk about how dumb the design of wizards was, as you would start out casting a single spell and then doing nothing for the rest of the night. My nincompoop fellow players would chime in and point out how at 20th level I would be able to cast meteor storm and wish. I don't think this sort of argument really holds water, that being underpowered early and overpowered mitigates each other and constitutes an overall balanced design.

Of course, different players look at different aspects. Some people will heap adoration on how "powerful" a civ is, and laud a low skill floor. Others want a change in the experience that generally is accompanied with an elevated skill floor.
 
The way the Nobel Prize UA was described in the video confused me a bit but the description on the website makes more sense to me:
When earning a Great Person, Sweden receives additional Diplomatic Favor. Sweden gets extra Great Engineer points from Factories and extra Great Scientist points from Universities. Unlocks three unique World Congress competitions in the Industrial Era if Sweden is in the game.

Basically, Sweden just unlocks 3 additional World Congress competitions for all, including Sweden, to participate in. But I agree that the main benefit of the UA is the extra GP points from factories and universities and the extra favor. That's pretty nice. In the late game, Sweden should be getting a lot of GPs and get a lot of favor too.
 
The way the Nobel Prize UA was described in the video confused me a bit but the description on the website makes more sense to me:
When earning a Great Person, Sweden receives additional Diplomatic Favor. Sweden gets extra Great Engineer points from Factories and extra Great Scientist points from Universities. Unlocks three unique World Congress competitions in the Industrial Era if Sweden is in the game.

Basically, Sweden just unlocks 3 additional World Congress competitions for all, including Sweden, to participate in. But I agree that the main benefit of the UA is the extra GP points from factories and universities and the extra favor. That's pretty nice. In the late game, Sweden should be getting a lot of GPs and get a lot of favor too.

If the three competitions are all different, then the other two are probably also things Sweden excels at: Science and Literature. So probably, accumulating the most Great Works of Writing and maybe having the most Eureka Moments for the duration of the competition.
 
That part that should be most disturbing is the number of people concerned with how hot a cartoon character in a video game is

I would put it another way.

It is disturbing how female characters in video games are not allowed to not be conventionally perfectly attractive.

Typical First Look video has 1-2% of dislikes. Christina like 11% of dislikes you could say it'd because of of her being controversisl ruler choice, fine, but I still cannot find any reason for Nubia first look having 25% dislike rate other than people being offended by the video game woman that dares to be black and obese in the same time.
 
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