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Swedish election!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Love, Sep 19, 2010.

  1. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    Call them what they are Friedmanite Trickle-down theorists. There is a reason why they changed the name of their theory, and due to past performance trickle-down has about as much credibility as flat earth theories, even in the general populace.
     
  2. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Stop humiliating yourself.

    Since when are ECB economists "supply-siders"? If you bothered to read the short study, which you didn't, you would find that their conclusion is that the US and all countries of the EU except Denmark and Sweden could raise their revenue by increasing the tax rate.

    But the Laffer Curve does exist, which is obvious enough, and according to their study Sweden and Denmark are on the declining part of it, at least on some taxes. So those two countries are in the exceptional conditional that they can improve their budgetary situation by cutting taxes.

    And of course none of that is related to the fact that you stated that Germany has higher taxes than Sweden, and tried to prove that by posting their marginal income tax rates, demonstrating just how much you understand the subject (you don't).
     
  3. superunknown

    superunknown Fake Plastic Head

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    Actually, that is exactly what is going on in Sweden, and that's why the Sweden Democrats have made it into parliament.
     
  4. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    I prefer to use Bush Sr. term: Voodoo Economics.
    It destroys any sense of legitimacy the economic 'theory' may have.
     
  5. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    That's always going on, whether it's a willing or conscious decision on the part of politicians. The passage of time seems to ensure it. In the case of the govt alliance it's a conscious decision. They are just walking softly so as not to spook people by pulling sudden crap.

    Now, the question is, do they want to make Sweden fail, turn it into crap? Or is their stated agenda to be taken at face value, of simply making it work better, get richer, better positioned to go on being a wealthy and successful country in times ahead? (Who's actually against that, the most classic of Swedish political messages?) And the follow-up question: Are they going about it the right way?

    And Luiz is right about the ECB conclusions looking at Sweden. It's an almost no-brainer decision to trim back the taxes a tad, and suddenly it's as if the engine found a couple of helpful but unexpected horse powers we'd forgtten about. So the country from a straight financial pov looks positively perky, despite there being a humugous global economic slump towering over the situation.

    Really, the one positively amazing attribute of the situation is that for the first time in modern Swedish history it's NOT the Soc Dems who have hit upon the bloody obvious working formula. NOTHING the govt alliance has done the Soc Dems traditionally couldn't do better. The one reason I can think of for them not getting their heads around the situation, is that quite possibly the Soc Dems are stuck in their over-successul past, and are finding it very hard to make the necessary changes to renew themselves.

    If the ECB can crunch the numbers, conclude that lower taxes prodces more govt revenue, and the firkin Moderates can then implement it, and show that it works, I think we can take for granted that back in their heydey the Soc Dems wouldn't have missed a beat in getting on the job. Today, they're not. Maybe they should, but for the first time they're not.
     
  6. Ondskan

    Ondskan Emperor

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    Three bad choices.



    Ego-individualistic globalism without any cultural indentity, solidarity or real democratic control over anything VS radical feminist-enviromentalists without any real workingclass relations nor do they advocate unity and instead ignore radicalization.


    On the third side we have got an extremist party of nutjobs that advocate extreme anti-immigrant policies while being against the EU but at the same time advocating FOR the most costly form of immigration - short term labourimmigration. No real economic plan, no real experience and nazi background.


    Can you blame me for not celebrating with champagne?
     
  7. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    Short update:

    As said, it it now being reported that the final returns won't be completed until tomorrow Wednesday.

    On election night the govt alliance stood at 172 seats, needing 175 to get a majority.

    As has been pointed out already, there are technicalities in how the mandates are distributed which might have effect.

    At this point, the returns from voters overseas and the late votes by post are still being counted. It's actually so close, if the govt Alliance gets a leg up of a mere 7108
    votes, they could get a clean 175 seat majority.

    It is also known that the overseas votes tends to slightly favour alternatives to the right of the political spectrum. Still, the forecast seems to be that it might get the govt alliance about 6000 extra votes.

    They could consequently miss a parliamentary majority with about 1000 votes. Or maybe they get a little last minute upswing from a abroad, and make it?

    Considering everyone have their knickers in a bunch over the SD, and all kinds of wild speculations are going on about when, how and for what in particular the Greens might be willing to cut a deal (sell out their alliance partners), it would be kind of funny - and a relief - if the entire issue just dissipated in a majority parliament.

    But it probably won't happen.
     
  8. Ondskan

    Ondskan Emperor

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    I'm more a fan of their "arbeit macht frei" slogan.
    They ran "work is freedom" on some of their posters.

    It's like giving the radical left ammo for the next decade.
    :lol:

    http://emilberg.blogspot.com/2010/09/m-arbete-ger-frihet.html
     
  9. Verbose

    Verbose Deity

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    It probably wont. I'll give one reason, which works from two directions.

    Sweden is one of the most blatantly historically ignorant nations on earth. It has constructed its sense of self as 100% modern, part if which means "history" is a past stage, a catalogue of mistakes and misfortunes, which we happy modern people are well out of. As a result, history simply doesn't matter.

    That's why a deeply ignorant MP can put "work is freedom" in a blog and not notice the connotations. They're from history. Why should she know useless rubbish like that?

    Of course, then someone who actually knows a bit of history can connect the dots into a simultaneously hilarious and slightly frightening picture.

    Only problem, this ignorant MP is really only chanelling the general national sense of history as irrelevant. Which will severely limit the amount of traction this will get. You first have to explain to people in general why this is a gaffe at all, because odds are very good their neither know nor actually care.

    I'm all for Sweden getting a sense of history. I just can't see any indicators that is going to happen.
     
  10. Sveon

    Sveon Warlord

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    What are you on about Verbose? Seriously. You are just ranting now.

    And luiz, thanks for the american economic model, we'll make sure to send you a nobel prize in economics and archive it with the rest in the big porcelain bowl that goes bawoosh.
     
  11. Hakim

    Hakim Parasocial

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    Alright, we're xenophobic as well. What we have is a smaller but darker strain of xenophobia not to be underestimated, combined with occasional political violence that I haven't seen in the other Nordic countries.

    But we have not so far let any Jörg Haider, Geert Wilders, Pia Kjaersgaard or similar dangerous clowns gain any lasting influence, and the "New Democracy" example only proves that IMO. It's foreign to Swedish political culture and quite frankly something I've been proud of and yes in that regard I've considered Sweden to be better than our neighbours (although it's somewhat attributed to their lower parliamentarian thresholds).

    And we don't need that too. Our own flavor of xenophobia is quite enough.

    QFT. When it comes to media treatment, they should grow a pair (or snap out of the everyone-thinks-like-us syndrom). Unfortunately they'll soon learn how their kind best gain media attention.

    How they have been treated by extreme left activists at political meetings is another matter, that's been quite scary. In fact some stronger support for basic political rights would have been appropriate here.

    Me also but I very much doubt they will implode like "New Democracy" did. Even if they get kicked out they will stay in shape and may regain seats in the following election.

    They're about (anti)immigration and nothing else. In the end of the day, there's only one thing triggering someone to vote for SD and only one thing making someone become a member and that's not taxation or green issues. SD isn't just Jimmie Åkesson, listen to what their supporters have to say or the typical SD grassroot in the online newspaper article comments.

    Then there are some cues, eg what they (Sten Andersson) say about non-european adoptions. Due to the strict requirements for adoption, adopted kids are brought up in stable middle class families which will essentially make them culture carriers, with better language skills and practising of Swedish traditions than the common Swede. Really, that applies for every adopted kid I've ever met. Still, SD are against. Only race remain as reason to oppose it. Another issue is the Dawit Isaac issue which have no bearing on integration, yet SD grassroots don't mind him rotting to death in Eritrean prison (and don't pick up the insult this also is). They want to pull out of Afghanistan despite that being one of very few opportunities to "help refugees where they are instead of importing them to Sweden". Furthermore there's no worries about Anglo-Saxon influence over Swedish language and culture.

    And when you think about it, where's the glory of Sweden in their statements? Aren't they supposed to be nationalistic? Me and Al_Da_Great seem to be the only ones realising that they're not even that.
     
  12. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    I'm not sure I follow. The study I posted was not the done by Americans, and it certainly was not done by me.

    And if you have any problems with it by all means address them.
     
  13. skallben

    skallben Diplomat

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    I agree, they violence makes their argument void. However I can understand them in a way as I had friends quite close to such crowds. Alot of those people have been attacked by nazi-skinheads unprovoked, because they look like "leftists" and the anger is projectet right back at the racist crowd. The problem with this is that they attack the wrong guys, SD does a lot of things but they do not resort to violence as a group. Emotionally, I don't give a penny though if some nazi-skinhead with plenty of assaults on their record get roughed up. I don't mean that I would do it or that I principally agree with it but I know what it's like to get kicked in the head on open street for no reason, it's a psychological horror. You know, emotions say one thing, my rational logics another. But the I guess being conflicted is part of being human, at least according to some psychological theories.

    I think he's try to get at the "american model" where low-taxes and weak state is the central themes. Some studies of the swedish model does it from a way theoretical standpoint and external effects are not included. It would require sociological studies to complete such an evaluation on for instances consuming habits and the big circle of taxmoney going into the state, back to citizens etc. I'm no expert but from as much I could understand from class in Economic History, evaluating the high-tax system from a pure theoretical standpoint with curves and models does not necessary paint the whole picture. Else the system would have failed decades ago.
     
  14. Sveon

    Sveon Warlord

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    I actually meant the laffer curve luiz been harping on about. But I like your interpretation better than my own skallben. May I adopt it instead?

    Otherwise:

    Spoiler :
    The Laffer curve is an American thought experiment, at best, and nothing to build an argument on. It has fundamental flaws like the "fact" that 100% tax would generate 0 income because "no one would work". I may seem reasonable but where is the truth when some suggests 20% to maximize and other 70%? I'd imagine you can't even use it scientifically unless you also provide an unreasonable amount of simplifications, considerations and adaptations.

    Also, maximising tax returns may not even be the most desirable way to go. It's not a computer game. There are cultural considerations. Some people actually see other values in life than what's in their wallet.

    The willingness and trust in the system is integral to it's efficiency as well. In Sweden we have according to studies during the election 70% of the population expressing full trust in their elected officials. You'd be hard pressed to find a higher number elsewhere. We have good reasons too because contrary to what some of my fellow swedes on here seems to believe we have exceptionally low corruption and one of the most developed democracies in the world. In Sweden we are bound by the Jante Law and it's a sin to boast about things like that but it's non the less the truth. We should be proud of it.

    Using a study of EU and applying it to Sweden will not work. It's like doing a favourite food study and conclude that the favourite food in Sweden is coq au vin und strudle.
     
  15. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    And I think you guys are misunderstanding a very technical paper by the ECB with advocacy of low taxes and a weak state. Note that the paper states clearly that evn highly taxed countries such as France and Germany still have room for increasing revenue by raising taxes (and they're not advocating that either, just pointing out a fact).

    While the models used may be somewhat "american" (as is much of macro-economics), that doesn't mean they are advocating the "american model". I bet estimates by swedish economists would be in line with those findings.
     
  16. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    The Laffer Curve is a fact. The exact shape of it may vary from country to country and depend on economic particulars, but the basic idea is rock solid.

    What you call "fundamental flaw" is actually the great truth about it. If the tax rate is 0% revenue is 0 (duh), and if it's 100% it's also 0 (I can't belive you have a problem with this statement). You can debate all else, but this is rock solid.

    I don't know where you get the idea that advocates of the Laffer Curve seek to maximise revenue. That's not necessarily true and it's not the point of the ECB study I linked to either. In my opinion, for instance, maximising government revenue is a bad idea. But we still ought to know the theoretical maximum revenue, because such information may become relevant. We need to know how far up we can push taxes in case there is an urgent need to stop public deficit - and that's where Laffer's theory comes in. Just raising taxes forever won't result in raising revenues forever - after a certain point you actually get less revenue.

    This is not an "American" concept, it's a fact.
     
  17. Loppan Torkel

    Loppan Torkel Deity

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    Some (or many) of the supporters may be racist, but that doesn't make the party a racist party. The reason they was voted in is because the want to limit immigration. That's what the party stands for, that's what their voters want and this isn't a racist stance. There are racists in the other parties as well, but not as many and it doesn't make the parties racist. If there had been another party that displayed a will to limit immigration and had saner supporters, history and policies, there might have been a case for calling SD or their supporters racist, but there's not. It's just a sad side-effect of unscrupulous politicians and hypocritical lefties they were voted in. I'm kind of torn on them getting in. I take great enjoyment in that the traditional parties, media and left-extremists were punished for their behavior. A sad consequent of them getting in is the immigrants already here feeling unwelcome, but why interpret SD getting in this way? Demonstrating against an elected party is just ridiculous.
     
  18. Sveon

    Sveon Warlord

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    Wow glad I checked back or, maybe not, but here we go. So your rock solid basic idea is a fact? I'm going to be very interested in seeing how you back up that fact. Please do begin by proving that 100% tax will rock solidly never in a million years lead to any tax income. let's start there. And if you say because people have no incentive to work I'm going to vomit and then provide the rock solid idea that could also be a fact that in la-la land people pool all their resources together have a big party and dance the night away.

    Honestly, I'm not that interested but since you seem so eager to prove me wrong the field is yours...
     
  19. luiz

    luiz Trendy Revolutionary

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    Are you on drugs?
     
  20. Love

    Love Deity

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    The problem with the current standing is that the sweden democrats can threat the alliance to support the red-greens in some questions and vice-versa. And the alliance will blame the enviromental party for everything
     

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