Synergy: Imperialistic, Leadership and the Great Wall

[JammerUno]

The title says it all, there's great synergy here for generating GGs. GGs points are generated as a function of overall experience gained. Leadership give +100% experience gained for the unit receiving the promotion, giving a minimum of 2 points for every battle. Those 2 points then get +100% toward a GG from imperialistic, and another +100% from the GW (100% GG points from battles within your cultural borders). So a combination of the three should give you a minimum of 6 GG points from every battle. Useful in a OCC for example, or in a game in which you're defending against big stacks of obsolete units.

I thought it would give me 2 xp for the battle, then +200% from the GW and imperialistic. Ending with 6 GG points after every battle is big, if you use your first two GGs promoting defensive units like LBs you will dramatically increase GG emergence.

However, I tested this in the worldbuilder, and the result was a disappointing 4 GG points from a leadership promoted modern armor vs. a warrior. This can only lead me to the conclusion that the xp generated by a leadership promotion doesn't get a bonus from imperialistic or the GW, which for me greatly decreases the value of the promotion.

 

[oyzar]

It is actually 8 gg points per battle(mostly 16 though) since you get an inherit +100% inside your borders. Since the bonuses(cept for leadership) are additive and not multiplicative it is not terribly synergistic though... +1/3 more GG points not going to give you many more GG's or GG's much faster...

And i probably should have read your full post . Basically leadership doesn't give anything towards GG...

 

[Khan Quest]

I just played that game!

My first GG was a medic horse archer and my second a CR axeman, both with leadership. When the horse (eventually cavalry) got blitz, I started getting massive GG points and promotions. I took +1 movement next, and the cavalry unit had 140+ XPs by game end, my highest ever.

It also helped having angry Julius and Tokogawa as neighbors, constantly alternating war declarations against me.

 

[Divaythsarmour]

I've been playing around with strategies using Cyrus and the Great Wall. Someone on these threads mentioned using first GG to promote a real good medic unit. I add leadership on after medic3 and then use that unit for the final kill (after something else has softened them up). Yes, it promotes very quickly. Another nice thing to do is bee line to literature and get the HE up and pumping out units.

Last night I had a pretty fun OCC with Gandhi, Prince, Great Plains, Marathon, tiny map. I went with Stonehenge, The Great Wall and then Oracle. My first GPriest went for monarchy. Oracle, I took Feudalism. 2nd. GPriest went for Theology. Afte Lit and HE I was pumping out tons of twice promoted longbows. I eventually ended up with one large army of just cats and longbows that took out all the AI cities for an early conquest. I would like to try bumping up the difficulty incrementally and see how far I can take the strategy.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Leadership is always my first GG promotion, and then down the Medic line, then Woodsman towards WIII. XP nursing is faster with leadership, exposing the GG unit to less risk overall.

And yeah, Cyrus with GW, niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!

Charismatic too so there's more promotion bang for the XP buck.

 

[Skallagrimson]

A speech by Cyrus: "People of Persia, give me stone and horses, and I will give you the world!"

 

[obsolete]

This really isn't good synergy. Mainly because once you get your Medic III, the added benefits of other GG's is quite minimal (and they can still die easily!).

Furthermore, each additional GG is much harder to get, so you are running into diminishing returns.

If you are going for this sort of route, it would be far more superior to synergize a philosophical trait with +25% boost to GPP generation UBs. The power of a GP is superior to any GG.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Well see your Great Prophet on the battlefield then, Hatshepsut, and best of luck to 'im.

 

[Artichoker]

If you are going for this sort of route, it would be far more superior to synergize a philosophical trait with +25% boost to GPP generation UBs. The power of a GP is superior to any GG.

Obsolete, isn't your favorite military unit the ICBM? I'm using them in my current game, but I've found GGs to be extremely valuable in putting up Military Academies for the extra production to speed up ICBM production.

The +50% production bonus applied there is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[JammerUno]

If you are going for this sort of route, it would be far more superior to synergize a philosophical trait with +25% boost to GPP generation UBs. The power of a GP is superior to any GG.

Adding 25% to a philosophical leader is a 1/8th increase in GPP, running pacificm makes it 1/12th and if the majority of your GPP are generated in one city with the NE, 1/16th, and you'll have to play any leader with any civ (no roman leader is phi). This synergy is far better than that. You can settle alot of your GGs after attaching a couple to some defenders.

The best place for this strategem is in an OCC. Because of the deminishing returns of most of the traits, industrious, imperialistic Augustus is a good choice for an OCC.

 

[obsolete]

Obsolete, isn't your favorite military unit the ICBM?

Hmm. I guess that's quite right. Unfortunately this unit does not benefit from settled GGs. I always thought that was an over-look by Firaxis. It would be nice for 10% evasion of SDI, or 15% added blast damage promos and other gimmicks.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

This really isn't good synergy. Mainly because once you get your Medic III, the added benefits of other GG's is quite minimal (and they can still die easily!).

Furthermore, each additional GG is much harder to get, so you are running into diminishing returns.

If you are going for this sort of route, it would be far more superior to synergize a philosophical trait with +25% boost to GPP generation UBs. The power of a GP is superior to any GG.

I attach GGs extensively and rarely regret it. They're very useful at cutting losses/winning tight battles you wouldn't otherwise.

But that aside, you're aware of the use of stacking GGs to get to medic III wood III right? Once you have ubermedic just repeatedly lead troops as a warlods with the medic and some other unit that will at least be halfway decent on the same tile. The 10 XP bleeds into the medic. For aggressive or CHA leaders this can get you there reasonably quickly, even if you aren't montezuma.

 

[feralminded]

I attach GGs extensively and rarely regret it. They're very useful at cutting losses/winning tight battles you wouldn't otherwise.

I really think everyone should seriously consider a super city raider GG and a super medic if they have any intention of combat (if you even have a GG you obviously have participated in some). Both can dramatically change your early game warmongering if used right and be at relatively little risk of death when properly promoted. On larger maps I typically will promote a mounted unit as well and keep him around with my mounted stack ... though this one is usually at higher risk since I usually just go up the combat line with him. I only do that on large maps though.

That said once your mounted unit reaches modern times there's nothing like having a level 10+ helicopter with Blitz ... 4 attacks a turn that really can't lose to most defenders. Its just fun.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's not overly uncommon for me to have a C VI march HA. Those are a thing of beauty with a super medic. Hitting things at 99% odds that would normally be <80 is cool. They can also be used to press in tight battles, although most people won't be comfortable with the risk associated with the latter.

 

[feralminded]

Yeah like I said I ALWAYS have to GG units ... my first is always a CR3, C1, Cover, Leadership Axe (takes a few battles to get here unless I'm Chr or Agg. My second is always the super medic (who I usually make out of my first warrior who can easily get W2 while scouting). From there I do consider the Mounted unit but honestly I usually defer HBR until very late (Unless I'm Carthage or Mongol) so I rarely play with the HAs ... shame too they are a solid Crossbow counter. And C6 on a mounted unit is insane ... the only issue I have is they almost always stack defend at that point and tend to die a lot more than my CR general and my medic general. Late game my City raider general tends to get way up on the combat line himself which puts him at risk so I tend to lag him a bit in promotions (usually leaving him one promo behind is enough to keep him from stack defending but still being a 99% city attacker).

 

[Grey Fox]

I kinda like horse units with a GG, nice withdrawal rate.

 

[Skallagrimson]

That said once your mounted unit reaches modern times there's nothing like having a level 10+ helicopter with Blitz ... 4 attacks a turn that really can't lose to most defenders. Its just fun.

Those mop-up missions are the best! It's what makes the game worth playing!

That and missile cruisers with blitz on the seas. Missile missile missile, dead destroyer dead destroyer dead destroyer, and transports are sitting ducks. You were bringing WHAT invasion fleet there Monty? Not anymore, HA hahahahahahahaha...

Picket destroyers, $5,000 bucks for each severed head of a drowned Aztec soldier! To Davy Jones' locker with the transports!

 

[Divaythsarmour]

I played another OCC game last night, Gandhi, Monarch, tiny, marathon, Great Plains. I did the same basic strategy, Stonehenge, Great Wall then Oracle. One difficult thing with this strategy is that it's hard not to found a religion, when teching the early religions is so crucial to the strategy. An early attack from the AI can really throw a wrench into it.

It worked like a charm on Monarch. The first GP bulbs monarchy. Take feudalism with the Oracle (need to have writing). Switch to vassalage and start pumping out twice promoted longbowmen around 900BC. This time I gave the first GG leadership, medic and medic while moving (on a longbowman). Then I use him to finish a job if another longbowman doesn't finish it.

Beeline to construction. At monarch level only the barbarians managed to reach feudalism and create longbowmen before I conquered all the other civs. But with a larger map or higher difficulty, the catapults would certainly help.

 

[UncleJJ]

Furthermore, each additional GG is much harder to get, so you are running into diminishing returns.

If you are going for this sort of route, it would be far more superior to synergize a philosophical trait with +25% boost to GPP generation UBs. The power of a GP is superior to any GG.

Not so; you clearly don't understand the power of the MA

It is easy to show even with a modest military production city that a GG (used as a MA) can out-produce a GE settled in your most impressive wonder city with Iron Works and all the bells and whistles. A military city with only 40 base hammer production (easy at this stage with railroads, lumbermills, watermills and workshops) gets a 50% bonus which is +20 output hammers. Of course that only applies to military units, but then Imperialistic is a military trait and requires extensive warfare for it to shine. And units are just what you need for warfare. The longer and more intense the wars the better the trait is relative to other traits.

I find it hard to compare Imperialistic to Philosophical (another trait I like) in such a cavalier fashion as you've managed in a few sentences. They are very different and result in such a different style of play that they can't be compared without lots of qualifying statements.

Playing to leverage Imperialistic and the Great Wall requires a provocative and defensive playstyle. You want to be at war and you want the enemy to invade your territory so you can get x4 GG points from killing them. If you know what you're doing and anticipate a defensive war will take very little out of your economy except the lack of trade with the AI you're fighting. In the early game (late BC into early AD) I've defended against Monte for over 1000 years and killed literally hundreds of his and some other civs' troops. With the large number of settled GG in a powerful military production city (capital with HE) it is possible to go over to the offensive with powerful army of highly promoted troops. Some troops will be those that have survived the long wars and others will be fresh out of the barracks with 4 settled GGs.

Justinian's cataphracts are good troops but they are so much better when they arrive at the frontline with 15 exp (barrack, stables, 4 x MI and Theocracy). One win and they have 4 promotions and are able to beat anything before rifles. I ended up creating 11 GGs that game (emperor marathon) about the same number as GPs created even though I had the Great Library.

Without doubt Imperalistic, capturing the Great Wall in about 500 AD and the settled GGs (as MI and later MA) shaped that Justinian game in a unique way and changed my opinion on the trait. I learned a lot that few others who criticise the trait know. A key technology for Imperalistic is Military Science as it gives the MA and also allows Blitz and Commando promotions. These promotions require a lot of experience to be used and the highly experienced troops an Imperialistic can build make these a practical proposition that other traits would find difficult. At the end of the game I had 4 Commando Gunships able to move about 20 tiles through enemy culture using roads and railroads, the first time I have ever managed to build them and they are the fastest troops in the game

 

[feralminded]

I have only ever had blitz and commando on a gunship once ... but that was pretty epic. Having a small fleet of them would be ridiculous. That said blitz + C6 on them is also ridiculous as they can dominate until the enemy gets Mechanized Infantry up and even then I think if you can slap on pinch you are still ahead.

People should try commando on a small fleet of gunships and try out the pillage option ...

Such a shame gunships are so late ... they are extremely neat units and typically come with a lot of promotions if you were successful with previous wars. Its a shame you have to wait so long to promote those calvary though ... they're useless for a long time there in between.