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Syria shoots down F-16

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Tigranes, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Sep 14, 2005
    Well, not half so much as they did so in reaction to the development of capitalism. Modern political thought had been busy developing for three centuries, and it bounced off the ghettos and shtetls like water off a roof. Societies are shaped by human behaviour moreso than by ideas about human behaviour.

    Western-style states have also failed outside of the Arab world, and are a novelty within "the West", outside of North-Western Europe and a few colonial regions. Without some sort of causation, without an explanation as to what makes Arab-speaking peoples less equipped for democratic or republican government, for civil society, then you really aren't describing anything more than coincidence.

    The Arab languages do not map particularly well onto liberal political development, no. But neither do the Turkic, Iranian or Sinitic languages. Slavic and Indo-Aryan only half-maps, and Spanish has only started mapping in the last few decades. There's nothing clearly unique about Arabs, as a linguistic group uniquely unsuited for civil society, except that they happen to have a personal distaste for them.
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  2. r16

    r16 not deity

    Nov 10, 2008
    well , this seems to fail me , linguistic differences and the like but is this a debate on how the West is democratic because they have such words like equality and stuff ? No , Sir . Not at all . The West was the typical failed state when them robber barons made it impossible for a strong Monarch come back and confiscate their lands , money and power by creating conditions for lasting institutions , like Magna Carta and stuff . Muslim world had the proper States for centuries after that , and like nobody much could invade them , like despite the tyranny . And like ocean going ships and the tech background they needed and whatnot and full 15 pages of r16 rant and we would also discover West really does not want Democracy and the like anywhere else .

    Spoiler :

    yes , Gencebay is still talking , he is available for the State with his existance and stuff and whatnot . Naturally , with such an insistence he ought to be the case study for the entire Hülya Koçyiğit stuff . Wonder what was his stance about Ahmet Kaya . Now , as one can imagine , the "Protest Music" in Turkey tends to be dominated by the Kurdish narrative and Kaya was the leader of that bunch , put it on the map kind of thing . Some very memorable lines , including the one about forgetting the pistol in a public toilet . Not for the laughs , let me assure you , if you are not loaded when you have the misfortune of running into "opponents" getting throughly beaten up is getting very lucky , in the jackalism that defines political "activism" in this country and you can expect the gun to get further "dirtied" , now that random murdering like hurts all terrorist / anarchist groups , hence the poor Leftist might even get executed by his own fraction , State being framed for murder as well . Anyhow in the good old / bad old 1990s , Kaya wins some prize and the seperatists are trying their best , despite America is like cowardly and slovenly fails to invade Turkey . So , Kaya arrives in the awards night , says something typically seperatist and mobs are very brave , so they start throwing knives and forks at the guy . Some Pop singer comes up next and he leads the hall in some Military march . The mobs are also very smart , knowing Mafia or seperatists can catch them alone and not as a mob , so the Pop guy suddenly becomes the only guy responsible , he threw all the knives and the forks , despite having like 100 witnesses that he had not , not one single . Years pass and guess what , the Pop guy is Public Enemy Number 1 ... After the knives and forks Kaya had left the country and moved to France , later dying there . Have not a single doubt that Gencebay would be nodding the head when every public activity involving the Hülya Koçyiğit and just a few are not traitors committee would bring up the crime , poor Kurd to be massacred by the evil Turks and New Turkey would fix this , stop this , mend this . Barzani of the glorious Oil wells - Future is bright and brilliant - Accept that the Turk is a dog - So let's all become New Turkey ...

    mind you , it's not even on the radar . Like nobody cares about it The knife and fork throwing mob was Kemalist then , became brothers to Kurds when the time came , they are once again talking so positively about killing seperatists and our Martyrs . What is it , like 3 years ago anyone who died fighting seperatists was not a Martyr ? The same mob will just love their Kurdish brothers , whenever the wind turns that way ...

    because everything in Turkey works that way . There is this "scholar" that has had a glorious run . Country wide fame on how girls can be married at the age of 9 . Not one journalist can name him though . Do so and you are taken to court , a ban on the relevant web page . Working in the standart way , he is protected , he is shown to be protected . Santa Turgut famously said people will get used to how things work , circa 1987ish . Every outrage is followed with nothing happening to the culprit . Yeah , people love linking pictures of how the Afghan people looked like in 1975 . Teaching "acquired helpnessness" or some fancy term like that . Not caring enough to know whether he is the one that says if you are adopted and you remain in the same room with your adopted mother after you grow up , you will burn in hell , because she is not your mother kind of thing . But he is certainly the elevator guy . If a man and not his wife are in an elevator it's sin , because the elevator is a closed place and the pair can commit adultery so women should NOT get in an elevator with men . Mind you , not that Muslim men should avoid getting into the elevator with women they are not married to . 'Cause the calender page just about 8th of March , you know the International Women's day , says it's a sign of the end of the world , apocalyps that a woman is taken as an equal of man in social life . ı hate that word , never sure about the spelling , why it isn't as simple as Acapulco ? ı have actually overheard people talking of the good "Muslim" times when a woman would not walk in the main street of the village or town and take the longer route in the backstreets . But as we have seen , the desire is an hiearchy of oppression and "Muslims" are for banning kites and foot long beards on men and that works when the men are distracted oppressing some people else , women in this case . When in doubt , of course , the "Muslim" man takes the elevator and the woman waits . Let her take the stairs ? Oh , just wait until that gets banned as well . Women at home and nowhere else , right ?

    scholar guy actually trolls and the whole media helps , because Barzani browned his pants and stuff when his "Independence" did not suit Iran , so no Oil , so back to acquired helplessness .

    oh , Whaaaaat? The PM says "Muslims" will oppose him , might even cause him loose votes and rails at such scholars . Like a year of every court supporting the scholar ? Within hours of the PM's speech , one starts a case against the scholar ... Bearded sections of New Turkey should not feel offended , America has not forgotten them yet . Everybody knows the spokesperson of US State Department is named Heather Nauert , a good looking one , too . And she said on the very day that talks were going on and giving such importance to that , America had 20 people in the room . Ankara has to provide some credibility afterall . Plus the idiot that will become the next Saudi King in London , insulting Qatar with buying two times of Doha's order for Typhoon jets , 48 to 24 . One should at least compete in terms of "modernising Islam." Otherwise typically "Arabesque" . The idiot has a different prince arrested and kept by Blackwater , the other prince agrees to know his place and not to oppose the Palace , so decides to not to show Turkish TV shows on his channel ; which greatly offends New Turkey , with a Goverment Minister saying politicians can not decide what people will watch , while under his watch the State Channel has banned fully 208 songs , with any reference to alcohol and the like . You know , just another day ticked away , waiting for the starships . Oh the fun to come ...

    a biz jet crashes in Iran , first fatal accident of the such for Turkey / New Turkey .

    Spoiler :

    taking the daughter of company owner to Dubai and back . She was to control the family holdings , also to marry next month . So , she takes 7 girlfriends of hers for some fun , all 3 crew are also female . Everybody killed . Accidents happen .

    they also have friends left behind . One of them married Arda Turan on the day , she wasn't told of the crash . One might remember Turan is a player of New Turkey . On the plane that carries the team to a National game , a teammate blocks the aisle and Turan comes from the back and attacks a journalist . He is 30 something , the journalist is over 60 and like a father to Turan , handling the PR affairs of the guy and that kind of stuff , but not particularly convenient at the moment . Turan gives a press conference , most noted for his single line or something : "I am a Man, a Man!" Beating up people does not make one a Man , but let's say the convention for the last couple of thousand years is a fight is braggable only if the opponent can fight back . With the ongoing Afrin operation , Turan cites "Martyrs" and that they can't have fun in a wedding , cakes , TV cameras , music , the whole lot , so they have postponed . Like 3 days back . Suddenly it happens . Because as you might imagine the 8 that got dead in Iran yesterday includes two with , shall we say , strange names . Like minorities from Istanbul and the like . And they would be there , with all the leading lights of New Turkey . Not knowing anything , am reduced to imagining that as soon as they took off for Dubai , the wedding was on . A discreet , minor one , happening at the home of Turan , PM and his wife attending . Because , perhaps because , New Turkey wants this to be the new fashion , now that the women are no longer to be "paraded" outside , like those state ceremonies involving the couple signing the register and the like . And PM had the summer full ? Now that if the bride had known , she wouldn't be wed on the day , right ? She was not told is the newspaper account , which then presumes Arda Turan was . But then ı expect she was told after the signatures , now that the only alternative would be like so much gross ...
  3. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

    Sep 26, 2011
    Yes, but the point is that Jews received their political traditions by osmosis, and not from a specifically Jewish context. Although you could argue that the Bible counts.

    I don't think it's specifically Arabs. In fact, I'd say that the same thing applies to Africans and Native Americans. And not only can't they build Western-style democracies, they can't build states that are effective in any dimension.
  4. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Deity

    Apr 2, 2013
    Especially if you define "effective" as "able to fend off invasion and genocide inflicted by Western style democracies."
    Lexicus and caketastydelish like this.
  5. Takhisis

    Takhisis Jinping, wer fragt uns?

    Jul 11, 2005
    up yours.
    We already know that.
  6. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

    Aug 10, 2008
    Moscow, USSR
    Western-style “democracies” are build on the exploitation of those people and pillaging their countries. Only a few centuries ago the Arabian/Muslim civilization was superior to European one in every aspect, possibly except war, but it’s not even that what helped Europeans to get the highest score, it is geography and Atlantic Ocean that helped Europeans.

    As for Native Americans. Aztec population density was higher than that of the nowadays Europe. And somehow they managed to feed everyone, they managed logistics, they managed to live without plagues – and Europeans were dying out so often because of that – unless the latter came to Americas with war and unseen cruelty. The same is true for Incas with lesser pop density, but still even a more superior social and government organization which is comparable to a modern state.

    Now take those Natives from the North America. How is that they are different from those germanic barbarians of the earlier centuries? If they had enough time to conquer and pillage their own Rome and Greece (Aztecs, Mayans, Incas), they would have the same level of advancement (by Eurocentric measure of advancements). If they had Arabs, they would have able maritime ships. If they had Chinese, they would have gunpowder. But Americas are smaller than the Old World and humankind migrated there later.

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