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Syria shoots down F-16

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Tigranes, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Shooting down the UAV would qualify as self-defense. Bombing people who launched it on the territory of another country, wouldn't. Much less launching full scale attack against its air defenses.
     
  2. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Well the Gleiwitz incident is known to be staged but even you would not speculate that Israel launched Iranian looking drone to have some fun bombing Syria. Hitler was after capturing Poland, what gains did Israel make in Syria? This is an isolated incident which was the most serious Israeli involvement yet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  3. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    All I have as proof of the iranian drone is Israel's official statements and Bibi's antics with an unrecognizable piece of wreck.

    All I had as proof of Iraq's WMD were british and american statements and Collin Power's antics with renderings of "mobile bioweapons labs".

    All people had as proof of the Gulf of Tonkin's incident were the statements form the Pentagon and the White House, repeated by compliant and (often deliberately) credulous congressmen.

    All people had as proof of the Katyn massacres were contradictory statements from the parties that in turn controlled the site and the media.

    Notice what I mean? Eventually we discover whether an incident was stated or not. Years after, if the side doing it loses or leaves power Decades after, if they win. Regarding this particular incident, it is worth keeping in mind that the alleged iranian drone allegedly crossed into israeli air space. It is also worth keeping in mind that a war capable of uniting the country around its indispensable leader would be mighty convenient to a prime minister facing criminal charges of corruption.

    Is it paranoia to doubt the official story? Or it it experience?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  4. FriendlyFire

    FriendlyFire Codex WMDicanious

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    Russia cant pretend its not esclating the situation with these provocations
    Directly using Russian forces to attack US troop HQ.

    If I were Ivan, this would be the least smart thing to do.
    Just crush ISIS and then work out something with the US to get the US to leave.


     
  5. r16

    r16 not deity

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    halep joins Kerkük in the list of cities liberated from the coming Kurdish Nation State . A gain for the Republic of 1923 , a loss for the Saudi / Qatari Sunnism .


    an exact time to discuss why World War III could have taken place in 1967 ; but in the next spoiler , now that ı don't want to be reported for a wall of text so long that people have to scroll down for so long to close the box and their brains keep melting .



    Spoiler :


    'cause Jack Broughton .

    he was a guy that made into Germany just after the end of the shooting ; took all the benefits of occupation , like "free" Frauleins for a bar of soap kind of thing , without getting fired on . His time was a lark , stealing the Swiss Olympic Flag in the Winter Olympics for fun and suffering nothing . America owned the world and he "was" why , unchallengeable warrior . That America made him a Military Attachee proves he had brains as well ; the undoing was being assigned to Turkey . See , every pilot loves his plane or something and Broughton started on the Mighty Jug , P-47 . And see , we had them all , due to the vagaries of the War , the superb Spitfire , Thunderbolt as already referred to and the 190 ... Mock combat is what ours did in all the 1940s and the FW was the most preferred , a better pilot's airplane than the other two . Broughton rubbished it all , claiming a patently false speed advantage and the like . Gotta understand that the standart way of Fighter pilot education centres on raising people so full of themselves ; and the venue was apparently a bar in Eskişehir , full with F-100 pilots of the now dead Turkish Air Force . Because given nuclear bombing role and nobody needed self doubters and similar losers , F-100 pilots were allowed by Ankara to button one button less on their uniforms ; they were required to be loudmouths as much as any American . It grew heated , like a standing thing for weeks with American teaching Turks that they had no place arguing with an American and finally one of the F-100 guys called for a loser with all buttons buttoned on his jacket . Some hours of pressure and the guy made a phone call , not to the Commie losers you don't know , but an old timer with P-47 time with one of the Commie losers before the Commie loser was re-assigned to God Knows where . Some wooden box was located and out of it came graphics , vibrantly coloured , because the Germans who made them had discovered their Turkish charges were having trouble following them if all the lines were that dull gray or whatever on yellowed pages and the like .


    now , these were some vons and they were bitter men ; Hamburg or Dresden meant a lot more to them -they were left practically all alone in Germany if you really wonder . As Germany was losing the war , they were expressly lost to Turkey ; without any slightest mention of the same to anyone . Because their superiors deeply regretted not heeding the warning that Valkyre could not succeed . Rommel was taken out intentionally by the British in the middle of the talks afterall . Germany was to be a potato field and nothing else ; Roosevelt was in charge and he was blind to the potential of Mao , Russia would be swamped by nukes and Chinese human waves as soon as practicable . You see , there was nothing remotely comparable to the WW II history those vons wrote , until the 1980s and that's me being extremely generously and the like . Especially after the Reds heard of it and offered a complete co-operation , archives , interviews and their views and the like . Russians love history . After the amendments and the like , it's said only 15 people in Russia saw that and half of them either were already or later became Marshalls of the Soviet Union ... There are very few people on the world that accuse the Turk of having a Germanic throughness and that kind of thing .

    so , the graphics "proved" Broughton was talking from his backside , unless he had an 'N over Berlin during that Big Week of 1944 ... And that subtype of the P-47 was only used against the Japanese in the summer of '45 . It became much worse after he challenged the F-100 squadron commander to a flight and he was given a backside ride in an F-100 . The pilot knows what will happen next as the he is in charge while the backseater has to "imagine" . As the G-loads were going up and going down Broughton had to adapt and the pilot would give him no chance , changing direction in an instant so that Broughton's posture against G would actually hurt him as the situation reversed . Broughton demanded a dog-fight and it was stopped right there by the US Embassy as he might have rammed the Turkish pilot in midair . Since it was becoming such a thing , Broughton's baby daughter was given Turkish citizenship again by the demand of the Embassy or something , much to his hate .

    years pass , Vietnam . Broughton is capable and eager . So much that the Commander of the 355th TFW has a billboard in Takhli , the Thai airbase . That he runs this base , not Broughton . Thais don't say much , having lived through some French influence and the like . Russians of course support the North Vietnamese and have unfortunately sent a freighter named Turkestan to carry supplies . It gets strafed by F-105s , under the frustrations of restrictions on the rules of engagement and Broughton "destroys" evidence by exposing gun camera film to light before processed , saving his people from harm . Not exactly , as he ordered the attack , to prove once again that Turks were enemies of America . As if Ankara owned Turkestan , the ship . He gets a pat on the wrist as America has just allied with Israel and what's to come is above Broughton's pay scale . There is little room for an Atomic exchange with the Russians . So , what's presented as punishment , an assignment to Pentagon is actually Broughton's bliss . Where he plans various aerial campaigns against Turkey . When retired and going into the Industry he carries on with the zeal . Becoming a test pilot on the Rockwell B-1 he will insist on planning and flying mock attacks , his favourite being a bomb run on Anıtkabir . Nukes or Conventional loads , all tested . The company will ask Washington what to do and be told it's not important ; even if very few people know that back in 1973 his USN counterpart was somehow given a "vynyl" , those round black things put on a rotating base and plays music . Which turned out to be the 50th Anniversary March of the Republic . Of Turkey . Gotta see , back in the 50s America was already promising "Muslims" a Neo-Ottoman future and the Republic would end by '73 , the 50th Anniversary of Lausanne Treaty . Broughton practically had an heart attack ; he demanded extra Phantom sorties so that he could be top notch in 1974 and take part . The USN critique of our undefeat in the Turko-Greek war that didn't happen that year apparently blames his loud mouth . The Sampson Coup on July 15th is always presented as a surprise , but somehow all the Clowns and Commie Losers were sent on holiday in June , as if God Forbid it might have been the last time they could be with families and friends , at least for some . Greeks refuse their Phantoms made it to war , while ı personally have a book where some guy remembers a lone Phantom attacking a water tower to get troops to die of thirst or something and handily missing .



    see , Broughton was not even half of what a Christian Lunatic can be .

    and yeah , kinda why British Aerospace hates yours idiotly so throughly , for mere dislike of the Quantum Fighter Experimental , the idiocy they want to fly on the 100th Anniversary of Lausanne , for the world might feel the Germanic throughness might have still survived and finding an outlet . Truly hurts their chances to sell fighters to Continental Europeans with claims that Qatar funds their project through their New Turkey proxy .



    this was supposed to be later parts of a linear explanation of whys and hows but came out faster .

    Spoiler :

    conspiracies are not the real deal , they work only with loser believers ? Why , take this guy . Harun Yahya to English speakers he might have made some name in battle against Evolution supporters , at least according to Turkish newspapers . See , he specialized with the Rich . Easy , the rich have money and would feel more comfortable with a guy who wore silk and famous brands of perfume ? See , one of his "imams" would specialize in sdomy so that the daughters of rich families would keep the blood and know it all , in case they ever came across some guy worthy of marrying . You know , not because those vons were like junkers for 2 or 3 centuries and a certain percentage of recruitment would be from moneyed classes ; neither impressed by money nor lacking table manners . See , there was a guy Sabotendorf or something that jumped off the pier in May '45 in Istanbul . A founder of Thule Society , hence claimed to be the real brain behind the Nazis , at least according to Turkish newspapers , he "felt" like cornered or something , at a time all the Nazis were writing CVs to post to OSS . A brief time where the puppetmasters of the Turk were once again Germans , instead of the Commies , so to speak . Americans would have none of that , employing all the Germans , so it was quickly amended .

    the interlude was run by a guy who claimed to be a German genius in Theoritical Physics . Appalled by Materialism , he naturally ends up in Finland and stuff where he makes friends within emigrees of Kazan Turks and figures it all out . Evil Zionists are travelling in time and directing dudes like Lenin and Hitler to work in unison . Just remember that this is early 90s and Terminators rage across the moviescreens ... The sons of moneyed classes again , but before they start to shave and stuff , building an extra network of tripwire , also talking to Congregation and the lot on whom to talk to .

    then , the first one returns . Sitting on a throne , talking so positive of Atatürk , because A-K-P members famously wowed that they had changed , before they were invited to a Bilderberg , while all of the Leftist media was full of charges that they had not . And openly flirting on TV , with women , generally former models . Like a decade of presence . He has a TV channel and a website and is seen dancing on the last night of 2017 . Oh my , such a spat with the Religious Authority . On whether Verses from the Kuran can be recited while "decoltage" is visible . The full English of which happens to be décolletage , ı looked it up in the dictionary .We learn them evil British Intelligence is pulling the strings of the Religious Authority , so angry with Harun Yahya heroically fighting Evolution . Not anything new , A-K-P has had every journalist sacked if they didn't refer the Party as the clean one , and the sacked have websites and raise all sorts of trouble . Corruption and congregations exposed online . See , to fight Yahya , the Party brings a legal requirement for websites to get a licence , and nobody expects the sacked journalists to ever get a licence ... 40% of this country would wear a skirt if the Party told them to do so and yet endemic and systematical election fraud does not suffice ; laws and election sytem are being changed , all negative narratives must be curbed . Hence even the assets of London are borrowed ...


    a particular agony of mine derives kinda from that . Have always been the perfect loser , would have loved to be the last Turk on the web , like in the heady days of 2010s ; Arabs and seperatists were brothers , the so called Liberals , seperatists and the Party were cozy allies in getting 58% in a Constitutional Referandum . With all the West wildly cheering and applauding . They had Turkey on the ropes , guard fallen , a blizzard of punches landing , referee counting up to 7 or 8 even before Turkey ended down . Would have been the Baghdad Bob of the Republic of 1923 . Considering like every single person appearing on any screen was a Congregation member anyhow . A position ı like personally sought , now that my pals on that weird Turkish language only forum are not that cruel . Was to rant and rant , making a mark for history . For a different century later than the 21st , telling what was really real , as far as ı could see . A silly , valiantly pointless existance . What happens now ?


    remember the chameleon tank of Monday ? Looked it up in the web , discovered a thread on some forum . See , in 2016 some guy posts or tweets a picture . He says it's a "Space Base" . He asks his audience not to think it's in America . It's being built in Konya , soon to be operational . As you should really expect by now , it's a space base actually in New Mexico , which happens to be America . Oh yeah , Turkey will soon make an unmanned tank , soon . Soon . The Republic of 1923 was never allowed to have a tank line , because it's a worthwhile investment , so they typically went and bought it from Korea . Despite the appearences , the parent company can do business with the Party , but the owner's son is to run for club presidency of Fenerbahçe , a position that can have a negative influence , so the company can not be allowed to produce the tank it supposedly developed . Instead a Party hack starts a company with Rheinmetal of Germany . It will no doubt win the competition , just like the original established-during-the-Republic company was practically bankrupted by New Turkey so that it could be bought by the Party hack . With Qatari money , naturally . And mind you , the tank of New Turkey is based on the one that lost to M-1 in 1970s , we will never be allowed to forget our inferiority . Because , despite all the practical begging for it to cease , America and the West wants the Turk to accept his demise with 3 hoorays for New Turkey . Will make more sense , hopefully , if ı write a more coherent copy from the draft ı did . Even throws light on the two rivers thing , me being entirely on topic throughout .
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  6. r16

    r16 not deity

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    israel and New Turkey take turns in attacking Syrian Regime Forces and the like in certain periods of crisis where Damascus can crack a sizeable portion of the "rebels" . The shooting down of the Russian jet in the same mold . Imagine extra 100 to 200 thousand people dead . New Turkey at least can be judged to have no clue on what it's doing .
     
  7. Thorgalaeg

    Thorgalaeg Deity

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    Government said it has established humanitarian crossing points for civilians leaving east Goutha before the final carpet bombing. I guess trying to get close to such crossing points is the most dangerous thing a civil in eastern Goutha can do.
     
  8. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Erm.. Carpet bombing of their own capital city is neither what they said nor what they are going to do.
     
  9. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    It is in Israel's interest to keep a neighboring government that is allied with Iran destabilized and impotent. The line it has to walk is making sure that chaos can be contained outside Israel's borders.
     
  10. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Drones have ability to kill people. If they do -- like Israeli drone sold to Azerbaijan and used during the 4 day war in 2016 to kill seven Armenians aboard the bus -- would you still argue the same? Think about drone as a bullet or a shell: self defense is not "killing" the bullet with your armor -- it is killing the guy who send that bullet your way.
     
  11. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    I would agree with you if Iranian UAV killed or tried to kill anybody. Since it didn't, shooting it down would be appropriate reaction from Israel, which would count as self-defense, but not bombing the people who launched it.

    It's like if I carry a hammer in my backpack - technically I have ability to kill people, but it doesn't mean police can preemptively shoot me, just in case I want to harm anybody. If I attack people with it, it's another matter.
     
  12. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Look, if your hammer is replaced with a toy gun -- it is less lethal than a hammer, but police in America might kill you if you tease them with it in a stand off situation. It all depends on context of the confrontation and who the sides are.



    UAV Saeqeh, looks something like a miniaturized B-2 bomber, and I would not take any chances with it.
     
  13. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    As Mouthwash pointed out, the map doesn't clearly distinguish between land-ownership and territory. It gives an incomplete picture of two related but distinct process, and just mushes them together as "land-loss". It's basically nonsense, not because the processes it purports to present are not historical realities- of course they are- but because it doesn't actually present them.

    So was the Holocaust until, what, 1942? The low-death toll of the Jewish exodus speaks as much to the efficiency of Israeli evacuation efforts as to the restraint of their persecutors. (Just as the relatively high death toll of the Palestine exodus speaks in part to the indifference of their "allies" in the Arab nationalist regimes.) I'm reluctant to adopt language that suggests an objective distinction in intention of the persecutor, where me might simply be describing their sucess; it strays altogether too close to apology for me to be comfortable.

    That's one of the perverse ironies of Israeli national mythology, that they've elevated the world-historical uniqueness of the Holocaust to such absurd heights, even other instances of anti-Semitic persecution- the exodus of the Mizrahim, or the White Pogroms of 1917-1921- struggle to qualify as "real" incidents of genocide. I suspect this probably owes something to the political dominance of Central European Jews in the early days of the State of Israel, and the current down-grading of the sufferings of Eastern European and Middle Eastern Jews.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  14. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm unaware that there were death squads going through these countries, rounding people up and murdering them. The Nazis started doing that in 1939, not in 1942. That's genocide, not ethnic cleansing.

    I don't know, to me this is like a map of Nazi-occupied Europe that doesn't distinguish between the General Government of Poland and the parts the Nazis annexed. Saying it doesn't show the whole picture, fine. But "basically nonsense" goes way too far.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  15. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Eh, again, I'm not really up for hashing out a clear distinction between "ethnic cleansing" and "genocide", when one of those words originated among Serbian ultranationalists as a euphemism for the Bosnian Genocide.

    The map purports to show "land loss". The map does not clearly or consistently show land-ownership. The map does not clearly or consistently show territorial occupation. So what is "land loss"?
     
  16. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    Not sure about 1939, but in 1941 there already were mass executions of Jews and other unwanted people on occupied territories. If it's not a genocide then the whole term genocide is meaningless. Ethnic cleansing, as far as I understand, implies removing people of specific ethnicity from the territory, not necessarily killing them.
     
  17. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    There seems to me to be a pretty clear difference between expulsion and measures designed to facilitate expulsion, and systematic murder. Perhaps you can make an argument that the expulsions of Jews from Arab countries would have escalated to genocide without Israel having been there, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone, even the most ardent Zionists, refer to it as a genocide. It would also seem that to be consistent you would need to then refer to the Nakba as a genocide, which I know that some people do, but I don't agree with that characterization.

    A composite of both?
    Tell you what. So I can get an idea of where you stand, take a look at the maps on this page (specifically, the eight maps labeled "modern evolution of Palestine" and tell me what you think:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories
     
  18. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Conceptually, perhaps, but it's much harder to do in practice, and I don't see any great practical benefit in doing so, except to establish that some genocides, some "ethnic cleansings", are less heinous than others. And, of course, a lot of people welcome such a mechanism, and it's why a euphemism developed by ultranationalist genocidaires has become part of the standard political vocabulary of the twenty-first century. I'm just not entirely on board with this distinction.

    Think about what?

    I mean, I didn't mean to give the impression that I approve of whatever the diagram was purporting to describe.

    I just think it was a bad diagram.
     
  19. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

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    Are those eight maps a good diagram?
     
  20. r16

    r16 not deity

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    as always , you is a literary device , used to make the narrative flow , not pontificate this way or the other .


    Spoiler :

    nobody reads my posts and ı expect no response after the two particular pages of discussion about the nature of Israeli expansion over the years . There possibly would be , if people read , to the extent that they are not monsters down there . ı know nothing about anything , in particular down there and living/having lived down there people can personally attest that they are not stocking White Phosporus to burn Palestinians alive , because shooting them is not the fun it used to be . ı can only say that your opinion does not matter at all ; the sole thing that matters is what "opinion leaders" over the world think . And ı say this as a Turk personally called a few variants of what you get called . ı belong to a "race" that will never be forgiven for the unholy combination of white skin and the "Muhammedan" faith . And such a long history of experience of jokes becoming "reality" ; anyone cheerleaded laughter at my expense became suspicious at how nobody was bothering to do anything about me , despite the massive power the new kind of authorities were amassing . Every joke had run its course ; the final one was to be a public humiliation of proof that ı was nothing ; despite me saying the same for years . As it didn't ever happen , there was "fear" ; have seen dead pigeons on the way home and stuff . Enter what you get called ; an "epithet" justifies anything that might have happened , upto some idiot who couldn't buy his fare to Jihad abroad cutting my throat , out of nothing . Extreme indeed . And even in far simpler things it works . By being the Other , even the things you are called , makes me wrong all the time and who joked right all the time , everything was my own fault , not theirs . You see , ı had plotted it all by myself ... At the end of the day , when it came , in about 5 years time . All am left is being the center of attention . Not even seeking it , too . Just yesterday , this little motorcycle coasted by me and the guy in the back loudly shouting , me startled and this proving their way of thinking in the now endless debate of whether am afraid of everything or whether am afraid of nothing . In case the ownership of the little motorcycle happens to be the pinnacle of their achievements in life , those two have proven their point , answered the question and this is like the 4th time , the previous most recent was a sharp brake of the car as ı was walking .


    epithets exist , everywhere and everytime , because Mankind finds it easier to cope with cr_p if there is an hierarchy of things . The Rich at the top , it's the Poor's lot to suffer kind of thing , with the "Other" providing the distraction . The Poor might become Rich one day but the Other is an animal and the unrepentant enemy of the Poor and the Rich . Am almost 50 , like had 20 years of education -being like totally lazy- saw the explosive expansion of privately owned Media , halfway familiar with the "Anatolian Islam's toleration" and every single narrative that came form all those agreed on a thing . That we Turks are not racists . Nothing like Americans making them Blacks sit at the back of the bus . Turns out only because there wasn't enough number of Blacks ; they were curiosities , seen once in a lifetime instead of everyday on the street . At some Cyprus university students killed a Black classmate or whatever of theirs and they can't offer a single explanation on why . ı don't imagine they would waste some White European when he rejected to be the Other , but you know , no Black African has a right to object to being mocked , that sort of thing . So , they taught him his place with putting out cigarettes on him and there are like 3 girls among the nearly 10 arrested ... And yeah , it's totally expected to be discovered that this is a Jewish Conspiracy , insulting our real or imagined greatness , because nobody can 'ing dare to fix in the inbalance between the Rich and the Poor . With it being a God given right to the deserving to be Rich and rape the Poor .


    am pretty sure could reasonably debate even with an Israeli that this general hypocracy of the Mankind is why this Shamir (?) guy offered Adolf's bunch that they could raise a one million strong Jewish Army in 1941 for service in Russia in return for Palestine . Without a single claim about the lack of honour amongst Jews , now that the percentage of people who lack honour could well be absolutely the same in Jews , Germans , Turks and Aborigines , the last simply as a control group , removed from anything in the Middle East and ı have heard Australian sand is even worse than anything in the Middle East when it comes killing hot running turbines and stuff . Actually far more sure that it could be agreed that Holocaust would not end in a sense with gas chambers still working in full capacity after the very last Jew on Earth was killed ; for greater the inbalance between Rich and Poor , greater the need for an Other . And like having no need to call on pals who used to stand at "full" attention whenever their elders entered the room . Elders having done it at older times . Like '44 when Adolf decided it was a bad idea to kill Jews to convince America to behave and decided to sell them instead and because of 1492 asked for Turkish intermediaries and duly people were sent and the negotiations duly started with gold bullion , later converted to Pound Sterlings and all sorts of vons heard about it and after immense debate within Wehrmacht it became 1 American truck for 25 Jews , Studebaker if possible . Russians had them and were doing good with them . Nobody liked Jews though , especially in the big capitals , so nothing , so Hungarian Jews assembled a team to explain that the camps were real and people were really dying in them . So naturally the British arrested the team and forgot about it . America simply acted tough , the Time Magazine issue with D-Day on the cover really mentions plans to castrate Germans . It was a gift with Time magazine on the 50th Anniversary and ı have it somewhere . So the plans failed and it was Turkey's fault and Stukas mock dive-bombed the Turkish Consulate on Rodos in February 44 for it had refused to turn over Jewish refugees it had since '43 so that they could be hanged at the gates and one of the elders was then among those put on alert , a P-40 guy at the time . And of course Tel Aviv gave a medal to PM , of A-K-P , about the Consolate keeping the refugees . Before the 2008 affair . So that no issues could be raised as trade between New Turkey and Israel tripled after Mavi Marmara affair . As already ranted on in 2014 , evil Iranians steal Iraqi oil from Kerkük and somehow transfer it thorugh a pipeline on Turkish soil and load onto tankers in Turkish ports and sell it to Israel and somehow Ankara can not stop that . Offered only after Opposition accusations that tankers belonging to the son of the PM were very active in the trade . See , stuff happens , it's the nature of the Mankind .


    as such , Israel started as a Western proxy with a special French support in all matters as Paris was bein' hammered all around by the Anglosaxons , was armed by the East Bloc because Moscow had hopes for an European Communist stuff like the Commune of 1871 and that line dried up as soon as the French industry recovered , Right asserted itself in Paris and Ho Chi Minh's affair quickly proved France was indeed the weakest link in chain of Colonial Empires . Dutch ? Oh why , they were truly done in by the Japanese anyhow . And a string of successes and the like created a vacuum if you will , so that the claimed influence gained power and kinda became real . Coming to a complete change of stuff , say , indeed by 1967 . Qatar's flagship TV station , Al Crusading to r16 and Jazeera to general public , has a documentary on USS Liberty . Which is kept alive by Americans , for the days when Israelis will become undesirable , the Other for all . The documentary follows the general theme . Israel attacking an American ship , knowingly , commits murder and has it covered . Uhm , actually no . It's a full Israeli PR show . No reference to the pilot something Spector is the son of a guy lost on a commando raid in the Mediterranean . If "aristocratic elements" in the US had acted he would become a scapegoat , but let's say this is far too much a specialist thing . Oh why , let's discuss the American Admiral in the documentary then . Whom ı suppose was the NSA chief or whatever , Inman something , probably the one once described as having a photographic memory , thus forgetting nothing . This from an old Heffner's magazine , for ı happen to be one who used to "read" that , second hand issues all and say , my views on Counter-Insurgency was much formed by an article on El Salvador in an issue with Sondra (?) Greenberg on the cover . Anyhow this Admiral is solely present to explain the Military side of the affair . Everybody knows Jews control the Media and can decide on who will win an election , right ? But Military operates on "principles" and Arabs have done great or something with US Military sharing the "principles" so it has to be explained . And yours idiotly , because of some little remembering that single photographic memory thing from an issue of which ı can't remember the cover or the centerfold , immediately sees the Admiral is lying . Hence the documentary makers are also lying . With the claim that America was suffering a lot from the SAMs in Vietnam and Israelis captured a SAM radar , with its Russian operators inside the control van and turned it over the US and Pentagon forgave them , while burning to really hurt Tel Aviv . Because ı read about it in some other magazine and it 'ing happened in 1969 .

    and it begans like in 1960 when some Papist won the election to the White House , reinforced by the general inability of America for a win in Vietnam . 1966 had seen a general consensus between the "elements" of US and Israeli Goverments on massive re-armament of the Israelis as an attrition of Russian defence output . T-64/72/80 production were immensely delayed over decades to replace the thousands of tanks the Arabs lost and T-54/55/62 had to stay on the bands far longer kind of thing . Back to Spector . No doubt he was told that he would attack an American ship to force an American response . It was standart operating procedure in the USN to keep a live nuclear bomb on alert , pilot in cockpit and plane on one catapult . That of course , wouldn't happen . America wouldn't nuke Cairo for assuming Egyptians were mad at being defeated and had taken revenge on a defenceless ship , left like alone 500 nautical miles away from other American ships , but might have hit Egyptian airbases and the like . Thus wouldn't offer any opposition to the occupation of the Golan Heights in 67 and East Bank in 68 and West shore of Suez in 69 . Spector was then simply a line pilot , ı don't think he knew what would happen if the strategy failed . If American "aristocrats" acted and bombed Israeli airbases instead . Then Tel Aviv would say Spector was obviously deranged , he hadn't spoken to his mother in years or maybe he was a Communist spy , so angry in his youth to believe the British betrayed his father (some sort of a National hero) and his attack into Vichy Syria , that kind of thing . Strategy didn't fail , the new order in the US "was" proven to in power and "Greater Israel" was in , as an American Far Right thing , to become an American thing , on a bi-partizan level . Spector's mother was involved with some guy but it's years since ı read Spector's memoirs in a book trawled from the net and his penance might also clear the way for promotions in the top-rank Israeli society , but it's really hard to read between the lines if it's only a single sentence , nor ı have had any reason to study the period and stuff .


    by 1973 he had matured . Getting a Phantom squadron to command and that much to his opposition . People are but mere leaves in the wind , he was assigned against his wishes . But by his own people in the tribal fighting that characterizes Israeli politics . Fighter pilots are supposed to badly want to become aces and he was one on the Mirage , but Phantoms were supposed to be long range attack planes in Israeli service and they were like death traps in his eyes . Not to disparage any Israeli achievement , but fighting Arab MiGs of the time was a much safer operation than flying attack missions against Arab ground targets . Especially the MiG-21 was designed as a temporary part of an integrated air defence system that was kind of obsessed with the B-52 . Single ship missions to altitude under ground control against a single target and soon to be fully replaced with SAMs during Khruschev's reign who was truly converted into rocketry . The guns had been already left out as dead weight by the time exports to Arab countries began , even the gunsight didn't work now that the 2 Sidewinder copies were to take out any aiming errors , readily omitting the copies were like worse than the American originals ... Little visibility combined with little support from the ground and too little a size : Israelis make much of the fact that pilot's oxygen bottle was next to the fuel tanks and any hit on the fuselage broke the bottle and tanks at the same time . Yeah , Americans were doing a lot worse in Vietnam against the same , but Route Pack 6 is much smaller compared to the "vast" expanses of Egypt . No gaps whatsoever in Vietnamese coverage and they quickly learned to make hit and run attacks , darting in and out of clouds where applicable . Not that much clouds in the Middle East , right ? Arab pilots would fire their missiles , miss and return to base (if not shot down already) and Israeli Mirages would pounce on them , and in the context of aerial fighting it is truly acceptable . Giving up all that for getting shot up by radar controlled flak ? Not very likely . But politics didn't ask Spector's opinion , Israel was winning a lot of victories and whoever won most would go ahead far in public perception. He ended up in South Israel against Egypt and apparently was much hated by the North Israel guys against Syria and Iraq as he could fulfil his duty only with stealing North's equipment and staff , because his squadron had to be ready as soon as possible to gather as much glory as possible .

    glory was hard to come , though . The losses were high , far higher . America had supposedly proven the ascendancy of Western technology in 1972 , finally learning how to fight and that sort of thing . Even if the superlative exchange ratio of USN Navy Phantoms was mostly against MiG-17s in fighting close to the shore where Amerrican coverage matched Vietnamese on the minimum . And USAF was getting dragged through the coals , again . The October fighting began with Israeli acceptance of that "surprise" ; the Israeli surprise in return was to be a quick defeat of the attacks and across the Jordan River because the belief was that it was a glorious American Far Right scheme to have King Hussein evict Palestinians . The guy loved some of his generals being told weeks before that there would be war and all of them parading in front of him after the war began that it would be real wise if Jordan indeed joined the war , but only on the Syrian front . Previously , they were to press him for a crossing into West Bank , you know . Now that it was all about bringing the Saudis (America's pets) into the big league . Jordan stupidly joins the glorious Arab offensive , Jordan loses big , Jordan loses a bridgehead on the East Bank , Hussein loses his head , Riyadh completes the Vahhabi victory over the "original" Arab Kings , Saudis make Israeli give up some land through the Oil as Weapon scheme , win hearts and minds and starts working on Iraq . Hearing this the commanders in Sinai were unhappy and this is the real reason of the pell mell attack on the Egyptian bridgeheads ; they too wanted to be among the "conquerors" of 1973 . Yes , true dat the Israeli doctrine called for immediate attacks , yes true dat Egyptian engineers and their water cannons and their pontoon bridges cleared far too many crossings with far too rapid a build up of forces , but doctrinally the ATGWs were already examined and accepted as very long ranged but vulnerable anti-tank guns , right ?

    the bad boy was the SA-6 . A wonder weapon , with Israelis having no counter-measures . Being around since the 60s and working on some different principles than the standart SA-2 , or the SA-3 . Which the Russians had introduced in the Attrition War to cover the low altitude gap . They had felt no such need in Vietnam , because the compact size of RP 6 , the environs of Hanoi and Haiphong , meant there were a lot of AA guns were available . So does that stand up to scrunity ? Of course , no . Israelis themselves had HAWKs , SAMs of American make working much in the same way ; actually used as the Red Team while American counter-measures were being developed . The misunderstanding stems from that Americans assuring Israelis that the standart jamming pods were all set to go . The 1970s are known as the hollow years in the US Military , the bad feeling of not winning in Vietnam combined with Inflation cut down funding . Not everything could be bought on a whim . It was all in thinking , theory and the like and not all jamming pods were equal . Those who went to Israel were "standart" while "anti SA-6" types were stocked in the US , to keep them safe from compromised somehow . Possibly some US "aristocrat" who forgot to stress that .

    so , Spector has to explain the debacle somehow . It's in every military history the attack on Golan Heights was more serious for Israel proper and planes were simply rushed in ,right ? Spector mentions a general attack long planned on Syrian SAM batteries . Every plane in Israel to arrive en masse , while some of them will indeed be shot down the rest will brave flak fire to dive bomb launchers and radars and all that . Nobody fears Migs at all , so Syrian airspace will be open to operations . Crushing the Syrian Army , it having escaped much of the fate of Nasser's troops . Sinai invaded as a buffer zone , no particular need to rush there afterall . But surprise attack , so little Israeli presence on the front , Mount Hermon fallen , to Soviet paratroopers leading Syrian ones according to the first wild rumours . So , general attack on the Syrian tanks instead , leading the Israeli planes into a shooting gallery of everything , SAMs to Shilkas .

    while ı will avoid calling average American Christian Fundamentalist weirdo a cretin and a fool , ı will not also expect them to see the details in that . Or like in anything . America Number One , America won in the Christmas War of '72 , Russia can not stand upto America and they benevolently help Israelis with a promise to replace every plane lost in battle . In effect and completely realised in the War of Attrition ... There's no 'ing way Israel could have lost 33 planes in a single afternoon ! So , they are being Jews and telling lies and cheating good Christians out of money ! America has liasion officers who count them "out and in" (as the phrase was invented by the BBC in 1982 during Falklands) and are they sure the lost planes are not landing at a different base ? Yeah , had they a F-4G of late 80s jamming power with them for each 4 ship , the Israelis would have dive bombed all those tanks and Shilkas with so little losses and staying out of the speed range of SA-7s and many AK-47s , but as ı said not all pods were equal . Actually the reason why the Israelis are so obsessed with Military electronics .


    the American outrage threw the Israelis in a panic , so they extented the war into "area bombing" . Spector and his unit was to take part as well . Bad weather that might hide East German Fishbed drivers rumoured at the time and he didn't believe in the mission either , so he took his 8 jets on the day and abandoned . The other squadron did not and "accidentally" bombed the Indian Embassy in Damascus . Officially bombs having strayed during the attack on Defence Ministry . So , internationalizing the conflict , with Indians being no big fans of Americans and vice versa at the time . Indians raising their voices to lead US forgetting the suspicions and come to the help of the little guy sort of thing . Whatever "aristocratic" resistance was swamped aside , Nixon himself asking about the pods and stuff . ı don't know which embassy Spector was to hit . And actually dug up the .epub and he cites weather closing down the passes on the route as they took backdoor approach and penetrated from Lebanon ; he climbing not to hit mountains and failing to find an opening among the clouds and you simply can not simply go into clouds on dead reckoning to target in a SAM zone in the 1970s with a 1970s plane ; that kind of thing . If you can't see the SAM coming , you are dead , American experience from 'Nam said . Even if any East German would be as blind as Israeli Phantom crews in cloud , if not worse , because he wouldn't have that honking big radar up the nose , but Iftach Spector was ready to believe anything by the 4th day of that war . Instead he attacked Syrian Army in the field and apparently did much damage ; though as one must by now suppose , it wasn't really that important as Nixon needed the Press , and needed it a lot .



    oh-kay , maybe that's a standart trick one expects a lot from the Israelis . Due to an article on some latest book on Mossad ops , ı understand it's some sort of standart operation procedure for directors to get as many targets killed / assasinated as possible when they are in charge and calling for an end to such operations when they are retired . In a bid to maintain the moral high ground thing . So , perhaps Spector wants to present a more humane face of his country to lull people into whatever ?



    or maybe not . Maybe it's really a bid to explain himself , as far as he states it in the book , for after writing the first part ı re-read parts of it . So , Israelis bomb Gaza and kill one "terrorist" , wait , why not ?

    Spoiler :


    ON THE NIGHT OF JULY 22, 2002, the “surgeon’s scalpel,” while excising a cancerous tumor, slipped deep into living flesh. A fighter jet was sent at midnight to take out a notorious terrorist named Salekh Shkhade. The fighter dropped a one-ton bomb on a house in a heavily populated suburb of Gaza. The bomb hit, and the house collapsed on all its inhabitants. When the dust cleared, it was found that fifteen women and children were blown to pieces together with the terrorist.

    When that outcome was known, the world cried out. In Israel hard questions began to be asked. People wondered whether this was intentional, and began inquiring about the limits set upon the military. Officials began making excuses, explaining that they hadn’t imagined that so many people were living in that house. Knowing Gaza better than that, journalists dismissed this explanation. On the other side, the shrill voices of self-proclaimed patriots thundered in the streets and markets, “What the hell is all the soul-searching for? Woe to the villain and woe to his neighbor!” And if one listened hard, one could hear the thrill of satisfaction and the joy of revenge.

    This bombing woke me from my long lethargy.

    I have to confess that in the beginning it was not the moral question that troubled me. I saw in all this something different: What was happening to the operational standards of the IDF? “A terrorist was eliminated—great,” I thought and cheered, “Hooray for the Israeli Air Force. But why did you have to get such results in such a miserable way?”


    The results of this operation—one terrorist for fifteen children—seemed to me like a pound of gain for a ton of loss. I saw it as a reproach to military competence. To put one bullet in the target you had to tear the whole neighborhood down? This looks like a complete screwup, done by a soldier who doesn’t even know how to fire his weapon. Is that what you learned in the occupied territories, to put fire on the target in erratic bursts? What kind of standard is that, my dear Israeli Air Force (IAF)?

    Even having uttered this criticism, I was still not that angry. I was aware that the mission was complex and that there might be many factors that could have affected it. Perhaps, I thought, the pilots and their commanders really did not imagine that there might be so many people in the target house (although simple common sense mocked the idea that in Gaza, packed with a million people, the terrorist Shkhade would be sleeping alone in a large house). So I kept saying that “had the IAF commanders known in advance that the house was full of innocent civilians, they definitely would have halted this bombing, and caught Shkhade in another location, eliminating him in a surgical, precise way, the way it should be done.” This was what I kept saying time and again, to myself and to everybody who asked me.

    Today I realize that in the past few years I had been repressing bits and pieces of information. Occurrences of this nature, on a smaller scale, had been taking place in the territories daily. After the Shkhade incident, I realized that this is the way things had been managed there for some time. It was upsetting, but I still argued, “Surely there was some mistake."

    EVERYONE KNOWS THAT WARS are an arena of mistakes where innocents die. In the three years of the War of Attrition, 1968–1970, against Egypt and Syria, for example, we in the IAF hit an Egyptian school full of children, shot down a Libyan airliner, and more—all by mistake. I myself was involved in a very serious operational mistake in 1967 where non-combatants lost their lives (more about this later). Tragic indeed. But a mistake can have some positive value—provided you internalize it and learn from it. This way, new and better ways to fight can be discovered, and new and improved weapons created. “Recognition of mistakes is the way to turn a failure into success.” That is what I was taught and what I taught others. “There is no shame in acknowledging mistakes. On the contrary—credit and dignity derive from it, benefiting all of us.”


    In short, I had no doubt that collateral damage—as happened in the elimination of Shkhade—was taken seriously in the IDF as a grave mistake. I took it for granted that the IAF works constantly to develop new methods to hit its targets—and the targets only.

    But then, to my complete surprise, the IAF published a press release that showed me I had misunderstood the whole thing. The air force commander, Maj. Gen. Dan Khalutz, made a public appearance. The commander is a charismatic and very likable person. He is especially known for a glib tongue and plain speaking.

    “How do you feel, sir,” the interviewer asked him, “when you drop a one-ton bomb on a populated neighborhood?”

    “How do I feel?” the commander replied with a smile. “Nothing. Just a light buffet on the wing, that’s all.”

    His black eyes flashing with good humor, the commander completed his answer: “I sleep well at night.”

    WELL, WE KNOW ABOUT SCHLOCK journalists, the kind who specialize in “How do you feel?” questions. Many times the answers come out foolish, too. I don’t know this officer very well personally and have no clue whether he misunderstood the impact of his words. But the reality was there for everybody to see: immoral and unlawful actions were happening every day in the occupied territories. And when some of the soldiers protested, the IDF and the IAF used their power to punish in order to silence them. This officer’s callous words, on the contrary, were said loud and clear for everybody in Israel and in the whole world to hear. All this shed a new, bright, and ugly light on the IDF’s ways of making war—both operationally and morally.

    I began paying attention, and the more I saw and heard, the sadder and more surprised I became regarding the lack of discipline, the defects in personal example, and the short-sightedness of our commanders in this complicated war. I began to see the problem not as just a tactical military mistake but also as a much deeper failure our military commanders were part of. The protruding component in this case was the separation between the principles (and the law of the state) and the deeds done in the area.

    This was not the first time, nor the last, when I saw friends and comrades, air force people, pilots of my own level, who were raised on the same values, separating their actions in the field from accepted moral values. In other words, compromising their principles.

    Of course, “compromising your principles” is the easy way, isn’t it? Why dig, why rake up the muck? It’s just a wing buffet. Why deal with it at all? Just let it go. Why rock the boat? Hadn’t Ezer Weizmann, the great, the glorious IAF commander of the 1960s, taught us all, “Don’t explain and don’t apologize”? So what do you expect from the IAF? Don’t be dumb. Sit down and shut up.


    so , he says he finally signed some letter of protest and they became 28 traitors to Israel , that kind of thing . So , he writes the book and am pretty sure he expected the story stand out as truth ; no detractor in Israel could possibly deny that he was one of the 8 who bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor kind of thing . That he is not a traitor , nor even a coward and none of the journalists who called him so were with him when some airbase was hit by a flood and he dived into water that came to his chest so that he could attach the wire to the Phantom's nosewheel so that the single other guy on the tractor could tow it out of the submerged hangar . Let alone when the missiles , tracers and MiGs were all around and there was no guarantee that ejecting totally successfully would save your life . And yeah , ı can sense he is lying when he claims he was really asleep on the way to Baghdad so that's why he is the only one in the 8 that missed his target . See , the guy was an ace and treated royally in the US whenever he was there and he also says he was involved in Israeli company that grew big in sales . The narrative being Israelis were supermen and could not trust the fate of their country to Pave Way series of bombs and so bombed on the manual kind of thing . You know , Israelis are big sellers of LGBs of their own make , and ı have like suspected that kind of thing for like 20 years now . So , ı really do not expect anyone saying the ground spotter party was far too overjoyed by the demolishing of the reactor site and gave up concentrating the beam , but anyhow . In any case , the bomb Khalutz drops ? Spector made it kind of thing ...
     

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