T3 External Consulate - Dutch Peace Details

[Bertie]

We're ready to make peace with the Dutch: we've taken all of their territory except for the cities of Delft and Leiden. At the conclusion of the war we hoped to be in a position to revolt to the Republic, and also acquire Feudalism and Monotheism.

The best deal we can make with the Dutch is they will give us Feudalism and Monotheism in exchange for peace plus 41 pieces of our gold. They will also give us Feudalism and the Republic if we give them 17 gold.

If we take the Feudalism and Monotheism deal, we still need to obtain the Republic somehow (or Monarchy if we decide we'd rather go for that). Portugal will give us the Republic for Currency, Construction, and 73 gold. Possibly another civ would give us the Republic in exchange for Feudalism (China, for instance).

Several other civs know Monotheism and/or Feudalism. Trading for them in all instances would be expensive. Maya knows Engineering, so hoping to trade a monopoly tech for Feudalism and Monotheism isn't in the cards.

The External Consulate recommends that we take Feudalism and Monotheism from the Dutch in exchange for 41 gold and peace; and then trade with Portugal or another civ to obtain The Republic.

I'll let the discussion develop before I post a poll.

 

[Bertie]

R&T has posted a similar thread HERE .

 

[greekguy]

I say take the Dutch deal for peace, so we get Mono, Fedualism, and 41 gold. Also then do the Portugal deal. Considering that the AI usually make gov. techs very expensive to buy, i find the Portugal trade very enticing. Also if we take both deals we only end up with a net loss of 32 gold, meaning the Portugal deal is even cheaper.

 

[Bertie]

I say take the Dutch deal for peace, so we get Mono, Fedualism, and 41 gold.

Actually we pay the 41 gold; but it's still a good deal. We'd have to pay 1000's each to buy either Mono or Feudalism from another civ.

 

[greekguy]

Actually we pay the 41 gold; but it's still a good deal. We'd have to pay 1000's each to buy either Mono or Feudalism from another civ.

whoops, i misread it.

 

[zyxy]

The 41 gold is peanuts. I agree with Bertie to get Mono+Feud from the Dutch. We can trade for Republic with China, Portugal or Maya (they lack Feudalism). For completeness I would also acquire Monarchy (from Japan, for example).

One possibility might be:
Dutch: gives Monotheism + Feudalism for peace + 41
Japan: gives Monarchy for Monotheism
Portugal: gives Republic for Monarchy + Currency (+Construction maybe).

We will get Engineering in 6 turns. No need to trade for it.

 

[Furiey]

The 41 gold is peanuts. I agree with Bertie to get Mono+Feud from the Dutch. We can trade for Republic with China, Portugal or Maya (they lack Feudalism). For completeness I would also acquire Monarchy (from Japan, for example).

One possibility might be:
Dutch: gives Monotheism + Feudalism for peace + 41
Japan: gives Monarchy for Monotheism
Portugal: gives Republic for Monarchy + Currency (+Construction maybe).

We will get Engineering in 6 turns. No need to trade for it.

Agreed, Getting Monarch for completeness stops the AI trying to sell it to you all the time which can get annoying after a while. So the next question is, assuming we get all this by trade, what do we research next?

Chivalry for Knights?
Theology for Sistine Chapel?
Invention for Leonados Workshop?

We need to line something up for 6 turns time, as although we may well be in Anarchy we should be able to keep researching as we are with a scientist.

 

[mad-bax]

No optional techs!

No techs that are optional.

If it is a tech that is not required for era advancement then we shouldn't research it.


Other than that... do the deal. It's what we wanted from the outset.

I would advocate a single turn chat just to investigate the possible trades leading to republic. I also want to make some changes to the cities so that we don't have problems in anarchy.

 

[DaveShack]

If it is a tech that is not required for era advancement then we shouldn't research it.

Agreed, we should not self-research optional techs, unless it is one which gives us something we want.

I would advocate a single turn chat just to investigate the possible trades leading to republic. I also want to make some changes to the cities so that we don't have problems in anarchy.

Sounds like two one-turn chats -- one to make peace and find out what trades are possible, then another one to make the 2nd set of trades, prepare for anarchy, and revolt. Then save before pressing enter in anarchy so whatever needs to be adjusted can be.

The 2nd one-turn chat can be avoided and replaced with a full chat if we give the DP flexibility on preparing for anarchy, and for any trades which come available as a result of the 2nd trade where we acquire Republic.

I also saw in some other threads some suggestions that we should use our last opportunity to pop rush to help prepare for anarchy by rushing markets or temples. That sounds good, let's make sure we have a complete plan before rushing ahead.

 

[Bertie]

Poll is up HERE .

I'm only polling the External Consulate's recommendations for peace: we take from the Dutch Monotheism and Feudalism, and in exchange give them 41 gold pieces.

The one-turn chat idea is interesting and probably a good idea; but that's a different poll.

 

[Furiey]

I am open to the idea of a one turn chat however with the restrictions on scheduling sessions (I've asked a question of the judicary as it looks like it has to be 3 days in advance) it could take a while to get them scheduled in.

My original intention was to schedule a special session for Friday before Saturday's turnchat to do the Peace deal. But this doesn't look like it's legal, so although I don't want our judiciary to get bored, I don't intend to give them something to do by scheduling an illegal session .

This looks like the next session cannot be before the Scheduled Saturday one.

So please consider - do we need to stop after the peace deal?

There are only 3 civs we can get Republic from:

Maya for Feudalism (they currently want 981 gold to compare prices)
China for Feudalism (947 gold to compare prices)
Portugal for Construction + Currency + 73 gold (981 gold to compare prices)​

In comparison the Persians (the only ones with Feudalism we're not at War with) want 25gpt and 1630 gold for it! Selling Feudalism or Monotheism for Republic would be far less than it's worth!

The Portugal deal costs only 73 gold and some old techs and we could then revolt IF we want to revolt immediately that is.

We can see this now, other than having the precise numbers I don't think we'll see much more once we have made peace.

Similarly Japan has Monarchy and wants 847 gold for it - I'm sure he would accept Currency and Republic (currency knocks approx 400 gold off the price) he may even go for Republic on it's own.

So another option may be for Saturdays session may be to make peace, buy Republic from Portugal, maybe Monarchy from Japan as well then there are several options:

• revolt immediately then come back and discuss further deals for profit and set the house in order for Anarchy with time for discussion before the following session on Wednesday.
  
• don't revolt and continue either until the point we do, when we reach engineering opening up more trading options, or 10 turns, whichever comes sooner. Again giving plenty of time for discussion for further deals for profit etc.

edit: As DaveShack said, if we do have a session just for Peace, do we want another just to trade and revolt ie: 2 special sessions?

 

[Bertie]

I am open to the idea of a one turn chat however with the restrictions on scheduling sessions (I've asked a question of the judicary as it looks like it has to be 3 days in advance) it could take a while to get them scheduled in.

My original intention was to schedule a special session for Friday before Saturday's turnchat to do the Peace deal. But this doesn't look like it's legal, so although I don't want our judiciary to get bored, I don't intend to give them something to do by scheduling an illegal session .

This looks like the next session cannot be before the Scheduled Saturday one.

Actually, I'd suggest that the special session isn't a new session; rather it's a continuation of Wednesday's session, AS I ARGUE HERE.

 

[mad-bax]

But it doesn't have to be public and doesn't need an instruction - other than do the deal that has been voted for. Anyway, you're the boss. I will just set out an anarchy proviso in my instruction.

 

[Furiey]

No it doesn't have to be public (but it would be as if I'm playing it makes no difference to me) but according to article J it does have to be a scheduled session, and a scheduled session requires an instruction thread to be posted 3 days before....

Perhaps we need to keep the judiciary busy and come up with an amendment to allow special sessions. But I'd better get on with the Summary for the last session first.

 

[Rik Meleet]

See my proposal HERE .