Tactic advice on spotting hidden units

[B.I.B]

Hi,

In my current game all of my neighbours are sending invisible units to harass me (Assassins, Thiefs and such) and have a really hard time stopping them and spotting them.

My current way of attempting to stop this is to have a dog in each city (all three levels of canine camouflage spotting promotions and +1 visibility range) that does the spot camouflage build up. The dog is combined with a mounted unit that has +1 visibility range and anti-crminial promotions.
I then set the mounted unit to wake up as soon as they spot a land unit.

I also use this same combination on some other strategic spots outside of my cities as well.


So far though this strategy doesn't seem to help at all, I barely ever see any criminals until they enter my cities (not even exiles), does anyone have any tips on how I should approach this to increase my chances of spotting these invisible units before they enter my cities?

Oh, just for the record I am using a rather old SVN (dec/jan) so if there has been any bug found since then or any rebalancing of camouflage version spotting camouflage then I have not played with that.

Thanks in advance for any tips

 

[Thunderbrd]

Hi,

In my current game all of my neighbours are sending invisible units to harass me (Assassins, Thiefs and such) and have a really hard time stopping them and spotting them.

My current way of attempting to stop this is to have a dog in each city (all three levels of canine camouflage spotting promotions and +1 visibility range) that does the spot camouflage build up. The dog is combined with a mounted unit that has +1 visibility range and anti-crminial promotions.
I then set the mounted unit to wake up as soon as they spot a land unit.

I also use this same combination on some other strategic spots outside of my cities as well.


So far though this strategy doesn't seem to help at all, I barely ever see any criminals until they enter my cities (not even exiles), does anyone have any tips on how I should approach this to increase my chances of spotting these invisible units before they enter my cities?

Oh, just for the record I am using a rather old SVN (dec/jan) so if there has been any bug found since then or any rebalancing of camouflage version spotting camouflage then I have not played with that.

Thanks in advance for any tips

This should be in the tips and tricks section really but I'm happy to add one piece to the puzzle.

Strike teams are specialists in camo invisibility only and are VERY good at it but dogs can be just as good at spotting them.

However, Criminals are a little different, and they are the ones that can and will happily pillage if they can. They have some skill in camo but also have strong skills in disguise, which dogs alone cannot see through. So it helps to also have a Law Enforcement unit in the city that specializes in seeing through Disguise invisibility. Between that and the dog's camo spotting, you should be able to see most approaching criminals.

But Criminals can also use your roads to speed up their travel so if you can get a few units outside the city that can block them from entry as soon as you see them, like some strong anti-melee (early criminals are usually both melee and throwing and are weak to anti-melee and/or anti-throwing units) fortified guards on the most used/fastest paths for entry (adjacent to the city so that even criminals with STRONG disguise or camo will by spotted at that range) can help.

Also be a little wary of forests and town improvements near the city... a pure invisibility specialist can blend into these plots better and use them for a strategic approach plan that can sometimes defeat even the most vigilant visibility defenses. It takes some practicing with your own criminal approach paths to get into cities to start seeing how you may need to defend your own.

Plus, if you have crime in your city, your city may be spawning the criminals from within, at which point you'll only be able to try to investigate and arrest them.


As a side note, Ruffians (bandit units) are not nearly so good at camo and have no disguise ability, but if they stay on the outskirts and in the forests, they can invisibly prey on travelers quite effectively. So it can help to have a wandering canine patrol to watch out for them... they are capable of enhanced pillaging as well and are happy to do so when they can get away with it.

 

[B.I.B]

However, Criminals are a little different, and they are the ones that can and will happily pillage if they can. They have some skill in camo but also have strong skills in disguise, which dogs alone cannot see through. So it helps to also have a Law Enforcement unit in the city that specializes in seeing through Disguise invisibility. Between that and the dog's camo spotting, you should be able to see most approaching criminals.

I have that as well. every city has a LE unit (latest available) with max level in spotting disguise and the spot disguise buildup
I'm not saying that I should perhaps spot all hidden units. but shouldn't I at least spot some?

But Criminals can also use your roads to speed up their travel so if you can get a few units outside the city that can block them from entry as soon as you see them, like some strong anti-melee (early criminals are usually both melee and throwing and are weak to anti-melee and/or anti-throwing units) fortified guards on the most used/fastest paths for entry (adjacent to the city so that even criminals with STRONG disguise or camo will by spotted at that range) can help.

Yeah, I'm fairly certain one of my problems is the roads, and also that I use minimize AI turn time to make the game playable and that really limits the visibility of out-of-turn events
Speaking of visibility, does the + visibility range promotion help the dog to spot camo farther away. or is that for "regular" vision only?

Also be a little wary of forests and town improvements near the city... a pure invisibility specialist can blend into these plots better and use them for a strategic approach plan that can sometimes defeat even the most vigilant visibility defenses. It takes some practicing with your own criminal approach paths to get into cities to start seeing how you may need to defend your own.

Since the UI in civ is a bit unerachieving when it comes to displaying this would you mind listing the camo-bonuses given by the different classes ruffians/criminals/strike teams as a reference (like reference you created with the different camo-classes.

Plus, if you have crime in your city, your city may be spawning the criminals from within, at which point you'll only be able to try to investigate and arrest them.

All my cities are running negative crime (-100 and more) so it can't be that.


On a side note the numbers feel a bit wonky when it comes to spotting and investigating criminals that are lurking inside the cities as well (I do understand that I don't have full understanding of the numbers). I have a city that at the most had 4 lurking criminals (I got them for "free" when I invaded), it has now had sub 0 crime for over 100 turns, one LE specialized in investigating (2nd level promo + buildup) & one LE specialized in seeing through the disguise (2nd level promo + buildup) and there's still one criminal lurking in the city that it just seems like I'll never see or arrest (I caught the first three within like 20 turns). As stated I do know I don't have full understanding of the numbers behind this, and it's not like it's a gamebreaker in any way, but it feels wonky that no matter what I do with that lurking criminal I can not see him and therefore not arrest him. Afaik I am using all tools that are available to me at this point.


Another thing that I thought of was a wish for an additional diplomatic agreement between civs (not too early in the tech tree) to allow them to agree not to send false-flag or invisible units inside eachothers borders. Not that it is realistic, but to counter the fact that civ is a rather unrealistic game. Since all civs in civ are your competitors no matter what it creates kind of a cutthroat relation between nations that doesn't really mirror the real-world. Even though I really like all this cold-war stuff with assassins and ruffians and all that it also helps creating a state-of war between all civs even when there is none. It gives a bit of the same problems as minor civs does where the AI is just too simplistic to act good about it. The AI has these tools to their disposal to stab you in the back and they will do it no matter how friendly you are and how good your relations are, simply because in the end you are rivals. In the real world this really isn't so. For example it doesn't matter how certain Canada would be that they'd never get caught, they still wouldn't send assassins against top US folks for example, simply because the US and Canada are not rivals.
So, in order to help emulate this a bit more perhaps there could be a new diplomatic agreement in the modern eras and onwards that allow you to actually forbid (and gamewize actually prohibit as well) these unflagged and/or invisible units against one another.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Speaking of visibility, does the + visibility range promotion help the dog to spot camo farther away. or is that for "regular" vision only?

It does extend the overall sight range and the visibility of an invisibility type diminishes by one for every space outward to the limit of your overall sight range so it does help to extend the camo range a bit, but every space away is still a point less covered of the special type visibility.

Since the UI in civ is a bit unerachieving when it comes to displaying this would you mind listing the camo-bonuses given by the different classes ruffians/criminals/strike teams as a reference (like reference you created with the different camo-classes.

It's fairly simple. Towns give +1 disguise to those that have it and forests give +1 camo (I think even to those that don't have it naturally.)

There's a few more... I'll have to look them all up but they are listed in the unitcombats as that's where they apply. These feature and improvement adjustments generally only apply to units on foot.

As stated I do know I don't have full understanding of the numbers behind this, and it's not like it's a gamebreaker in any way, but it feels wonky that no matter what I do with that lurking criminal I can not see him and therefore not arrest him. Afaik I am using all tools that are available to me at this point.

He's just been lucky and/or very skilled and using his own buildup to do less crime but evade investigation more effectively. A tip on these tough to eliminate ones: you'll eventually out tech them. A criminal cannot upgrade while inside an enemy city and that means eventually you're LE units will upgrade when they don't and this will break what can be a long standing near-stalemate between investigation and the criminal's insidiousness.

Another thing that I thought of was a wish for an additional diplomatic agreement between civs (not too early in the tech tree) to allow them to agree not to send false-flag or invisible units inside eachothers borders. Not that it is realistic, but to counter the fact that civ is a rather unrealistic game. Since all civs in civ are your competitors no matter what it creates kind of a cutthroat relation between nations that doesn't really mirror the real-world. Even though I really like all this cold-war stuff with assassins and ruffians and all that it also helps creating a state-of war between all civs even when there is none. It gives a bit of the same problems as minor civs does where the AI is just too simplistic to act good about it. The AI has these tools to their disposal to stab you in the back and they will do it no matter how friendly you are and how good your relations are, simply because in the end you are rivals. In the real world this really isn't so. For example it doesn't matter how certain Canada would be that they'd never get caught, they still wouldn't send assassins against top US folks for example, simply because the US and Canada are not rivals.
So, in order to help emulate this a bit more perhaps there could be a new diplomatic agreement in the modern eras and onwards that allow you to actually forbid (and gamewize actually prohibit as well) these unflagged and/or invisible units against one another.

I don't think I'd introduce such an agreement because it's implied by the fact you're not at war. However, I WOULD like to eventually make it so that if they are happy with you, they won't send them after you. If I recall correctly, there IS some of that already built in where if they are happy enough with you diplomatically, they will be a bit more refrained. I'd have to check the code again to be certain.

There should also be more to present potential diplomatic penalties for being caught, like spies, I know. There's more to do to develop the system down the road.

Keep in mind, Canada and Mexico may not be sending assassins, but that doesn't mean there aren't drug smuggling rings across both sides of the border.

 

[B.I.B]

It does extend the overall sight range and the visibility of an invisibility type diminishes by one for every space outward to the limit of your overall sight range so it does help to extend the camo range a bit, but every space away is still a point less covered of the special type visibility.

Super, great info

It's fairly simple. Towns give +1 disguise to those that have it and forests give +1 camo (I think even to those that don't have it naturally.)

There's a few more... I'll have to look them all up but they are listed in the unitcombats as that's where they apply. These feature and improvement adjustments generally only apply to units on foot.

That is ggod to know, however I was more thinking of the base camo the unit gets from its classes (for those three specific classes), coz that's almost impossible to try to get a grasp on via the interface. If you don't have it handy I'll just take some time and grab it from the civopedia I suppose (and post them here as well since those could come in handy).

He's just been lucky and/or very skilled and using his own buildup to do less crime but evade investigation more effectively. A tip on these tough to eliminate ones: you'll eventually out tech them. A criminal cannot upgrade while inside an enemy city and that means eventually you're LE units will upgrade when they don't and this will break what can be a long standing near-stalemate between investigation and the criminal's insidiousness.

True ... and its nothing I can't handle, just felt a bit wonky (basically me wondering if there was some magic to the numbers that I didn't grasp)

I don't think I'd introduce such an agreement because it's implied by the fact you're not at war. However, I WOULD like to eventually make it so that if they are happy with you, they won't send them after you. If I recall correctly, there IS some of that already built in where if they are happy enough with you diplomatically, they will be a bit more refrained. I'd have to check the code again to be certain.

There should also be more to present potential diplomatic penalties for being caught, like spies, I know. There's more to do to develop the system down the road.

Keep in mind, Canada and Mexico may not be sending assassins, but that doesn't mean there aren't drug smuggling rings across both sides of the border.

If the AI treats it like that than thats way better than what I proposed (whioch was basically just a lazyman approach to achieve the same thing)

 

[B.I.B]

Keep in mind, Canada and Mexico may not be sending assassins, but that doesn't mean there aren't drug smuggling rings across both sides of the border.

While that is true that is quite far from governmentally orchestrated black-ops across the border. The drug-rings won't actively destroy powerstations or mining facilities for example (unlkess it benefits themselves)

 

[Thunderbrd]

That is ggod to know, however I was more thinking of the base camo the unit gets from its classes (for those three specific classes), coz that's almost impossible to try to get a grasp on via the interface. If you don't have it handy I'll just take some time and grab it from the civopedia I suppose (and post them here as well since those could come in handy).

Yeah. It's all in the pedia and xml. I'd take the time to break that down and list it here but it'll take me a while to get to that so if you get on it before I do, posting it for players somewhere in the Tips and Tricks forum would be great!

 

[B.I.B]

Yeah. It's all in the pedia and xml. I'd take the time to break that down and list it here but it'll take me a while to get to that so if you get on it before I do, posting it for players somewhere in the Tips and Tricks forum would be great!

Yeah, I'll get that sorted any day soon

Btw, does Zone of Control affect Assins and such as well? If so I suppose that strategically placed forts (with dogs and anti-crime units) could help me tremendously

 

[Thunderbrd]

I cant recall if a zoc would work or not but it shouldnt because the zoc is because youd come under heavy fire if you made such a move but if the enemy cant see you they shouldnt be firing at you...

 

[B.I.B]

I cant recall if a zoc would work or not but it shouldnt because the zoc is because youd come under heavy fire if you made such a move but if the enemy cant see you they shouldnt be firing at you...

I see them as control in a wider sense, also meaning that you keep a more watching eye on what occurs in the area.
Image the fort on the hill overlooking the vicinity and sending out guards to check up on travellers and such for example
Or the moat around the city (thats a building that gives cities ZOC I think) that ensures that the only entry point is thorugh the gate over the drawbridge.

Buts thats another discussion, right now I was mostly looking for ways to tackle my problems with infiltrators. I think I'll have to start tearing up some roads to get more control over the vicinity of my cities. Love it!