Tactics and strategy...follow the action

[Indiansmoke]

The game is up


I would recommend we play as follow

Mali - Raskolnikov
Zulu - Munro
Persia - indiansmoke
Natives - CiverDan
Maya - Donovan

 

[Indiansmoke]

Here are the starting positions of our civs.

I have marked with x the recommended settle locations.

the only civ without 2 hammer start is Persia

 

[azzaman333]

What are the chances that one of their civs will start between our clusters?

 

[Indiansmoke]

What are the chances that one of their civs will start between our clusters?

none...

 

[Renata]

Well, there's that plains hill the scout is on. Hard to run away from two corn, though! (At least for this SP type.) How long do techs take to research in a setup like this?

Can you say which civ is where? I can't tell Natives from Mali in the screenshots.

Any reason you're not considering the plains hill NE of the settler for the Maya? I'm reaching wayyyy back to Civ3 always-war experience for this, and it may not apply, but a solitary hill surrounded by flat-land seems a heck of a lot easier to defend than one surrounded by other hills, rivers, and lots of forests. Or are you figuring the faster growth from the pigs is worth it?

 

[oyzar]

By settling on the plains hill the zulu player gives up a 3 food resource in it's small fat cross, that means it is not going to be possible to grow and whip a worker at size 2. As spiritual, we definatly want that. And if we have to build a warrior first anyways for defense, then settling on the plains hill is going to be way slower to the worker than settling in place. Difficulty of not settling on the plains hill is that this is our most exposed position, can it handle the chokes without being on a hill? NA is rather close to help out if that problem should arise i guess.

The native american player obviously have no problem settling on the plains hill with the corn also in the small fat cross (grow first then whip a worker from size 2).

Persia being exp with no 2 hammer tile in sight can settle in place or 1S. In place is better against choking, but with that proximity to mali, do we need it? 1S is better long term production, just 2 hills is going to be short, this is also a cha civ so working all 3 hills + both corn and whipping on top should definatly be possible. I lean towards moving 1S, but could see settling in place as well.

The mali screenshot looks like there is a plains forest 2N of the settler, that means we get to work 4 hammers from the start for a 7 turn worker, if so that would be awesome. Anyone able to check this out? Oh yeah, can we afford 7 turn workers as a start? My guess would be yes as they won't manage to both build a warrior and get it to our mali in that time.

For maya it looks hard again. The X's you propose looks interesting, certainly having the pig is better for long term, however that doesn't have any 3 food tile in the small fat cross for growing while building a warrior (which is the best course of action as we are going for BW first). As such NE might be better.

 

[Indiansmoke]

why does the zulu lose the food? It keeps the 2 corn on BFC

Maya can gofast warrior working hammers. It is not worth losing te plains hill for the flood...and there might be something on other side anyway

For Persia was thinking on settling on teh wine to get cow in BFC as well.

 

[azzaman333]

why does the zulu lose the food? It keeps the 2 corn on BFC

Maya can gofast warrior working hammers. It is not worth losing te plains hill for the flood...and there might be something on other side anyway

For Persia was thinking on settling on teh wine to get cow in BFC as well.

It loses the corn in the first 9 tiles.

 

[Indiansmoke]

It loses the corn in the first 9 tiles.

...so?

 

[oyzar]

So it can't grow to size 2 while building a warrior then switch and whip a worker at size 2.

For persia that would also means delay on the first worker (as well as delay at hooking up the corn), that is 1 turn delay on the worker and 2 turns delay on the irrigated corn or -9 food right off the bat(before growing to size 2). Due to the cumulative nature of food i am sure you can see where that is leading...

 

[Indiansmoke]

For Persia you gain the cow, that is 6 yield tile.

For Zulu you gain plains hill, the bonus cannot be compared with teh 3food tile.

Working 2food forest for first 3 turs and then 3 food tile for the next 3 it takes 6 turns to size 2. If you have 3 food from the start it takes 5 turns...that is 1 tun delay on the worker.

For a gain of extra hammer in capital or extra cow in BFC it is not that big

 

[oyzar]

For persia it is 1 extra turn on the worker, 2 extra turn to get to the irrigated corn, 2 turn extra to improve the other corn, that is -14 food already... When will the cow catch up? By turn 50? By turn 100? It certainly isn't soon.

For zulu on quick speed it is 7 vs 5 turns to grow to size 2, then it is 3 turns invested for near corn and for plains hill before the worker can be whipped(we will have BW within 8 turns right?). Then it is 1 turn to move from the plains hill to the irrigated corn (if we do move obviously improve cancle -> move), so it is 2 turns slower to start growing(-6 food) and then 3 turns slower to improve the corn(-9 food), then 2 turns slower to size 2(-2) and 3 turns slower to improve the other food(-4 food) for a total of -21 food for settling on the plains hill (in return for a bit of hammers and a tiny bit of commerce).

 

[fed1943]

Is it there a way for we to see the game?

 

[Indiansmoke]

For persia it is 1 extra turn on the worker, 2 extra turn to get to the irrigated corn, 2 turn extra to improve the other corn, that is -14 food already... When will the cow catch up? By turn 50? By turn 100? It certainly isn't soon.

For zulu on quick speed it is 7 vs 5 turns to grow to size 2, then it is 3 turns invested for near corn and for plains hill before the worker can be whipped(we will have BW within 8 turns right?). Then it is 1 turn to move from the plains hill to the irrigated corn (if we do move obviously improve cancle -> move), so it is 2 turns slower to start growing(-6 food) and then 3 turns slower to improve the corn(-9 food), then 2 turns slower to size 2(-2) and 3 turns slower to improve the other food(-4 food) for a total of -21 food for settling on the plains hill (in return for a bit of hammers and a tiny bit of commerce).

For persia yes it is 1 turn later worker and 1 turn later to improve the first corn (the second is next to first). That is 6 food lost. The cow will catch up, but not very soon true...hmm


For zulu the situation is different though as the extra hammer on the hill will give a warrior turn 4 and you will have a second in que while growing to size 2, and the worker will come a turn earlier, so you make up for lost time.

That extra hammer is just too valuable to be missed for 1 turn on improving food, not to mention the early warrior that will go to hussle someone.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

I agree with Oyzar on the persian start I must say... I don't really like the wine settling option. One south looks tempting...
For the Zulu, I would settle on the hill, for the defense bonus only. Mali can hold a bit for persia I think but that's it. Zulu is an open path of the map...

For Mali, I agree to the hill move... can make a fast worker (4 h) working that forested plain oyzar spotted then start on warrior or SK if archery is in. Still get the fp and pigs in the BFC.

 

[Indiansmoke]

OK let me remind the turnplayers to log in and claim their civs

Mali - Raskolnikov
Zulu - Munro
Persia - indiansmoke
Natives - CiverDan
Maya - Donovan

 

[oyzar]

It is not 1 turn worth of improving food, it is 3 turns later(in the zulu case).

As for the 2 turns lost for improving the second corn for persia, that is the same 2 turns as those lost improving the first corn (1 turn later worker 1 turn more to move to the corn).

Also why would posting in this thread make people more likely to log in to claim their civs? They are likely not subscribed here event. At the very least send them all PM's...

 

[CiverDan1]

Ok. looking at the save. Couple of thoughts. North will be more crowded then the south. North is 3v3 and south will be 2v2 initially. What does that mean? First no one in the north should go worker first, unless Persia is going to relocate to the plain hill, which I am am not a fan of since you lose 1 food source and use 2 turns of movement in the process. The city is also very hammer poor once the woods are chopped and wont grow as quick. Bottom civs can go worker first I think, remember scout start for both. Natives (me) have some forest hills that need to be chopped before archers show up. Maya should go 1 SE to the forest hill, otherwise you are asking for a choke if the neighbor happens to be Babylon.

Tech: Archery first with Mali probably in close proximity to someone. Grow to size 2 then slave a skirm. I might be too far away for sending more than 1 dog out early. Unless you can really cripple someone it will just hurt my development too much due to their cost and beng slow units.

 

[oyzar]

You don't think worker first with mali will pay off? BW first is needed for slaving workers for most civs. With a worker first subsequent skrims can be chopped rather fast. The chance that they will both build a warrior and get it there within 7 turns is incredibly slim.

Also for maya is SE really better than NE? With NE you get a 3 food tile in the small fat cross and both cows and pigs are 6 yeild tiles.

For the south, it is better to grow and slave a worker for both of them (so you get the best of both worlds, enough hammers into a warrior and a ready worker)...

 

[Indiansmoke]

@ Civer Dan...we are going bronze working first that is much needed to slave and chop, archery is next after bronze.
Maya should first move the scout west to see what is there...if nothing move on the forest hill.

You as natives should save cash and upgrade your first warrior to dog soldier...if you have someone close then it is worth it. That means going warrior while working food to grow. warrior will finish same turn as you grow. You need 6 turns of 0 teching to get the cash.

@ Oyzar...Not sure what you mean by maya going NE, that loses the pig.
In the zulu case yes it is 3 turns later but gains 2 warriors in the process and 1 free hammer every turn for the rest of the game.