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Tactics and Strategy Turns 100-120

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Kaleb, Jun 17, 2009.

  1. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Can you not play the turn?

    I will be home this evening to check things out.

    All unis need to be slaved this turn BTW.

    Regarding tririme, I disagree, it is better to guard it. chances are 50-50 if they decide to attack since we get the 10% coast bonus...but if we win we get the double points towards gg...let them try it if they want.
     
  2. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Are we not running at 100% anymore? I thought that was the plan or did we mess up somewhere?

    Regarding Trireme - I'm still not 100% convinced that SANCTA don't have a way of knowing combat outcomes before they attack and if they can we'll lose that Trireme for sure.

    And we don't get double points towards gg - we don't have GW.
     
  3. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Yes we do get double points kaleb, everyone gets inside their own borders. GW is just 100% on top of that, so it actually gives only 33% more generals.

    So if you win a battle outside your borders and your unit gets 1 exp, that is 1 point towards gg. If that same battel was inside borders then it would be 2 points towards gg, and if you had great wall it would be 3 points and if imp with great wall it would be 4 points ;)
     
  4. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Right, Cav scout ended turn, without slaving Unis...

    What can I say...next thing I know Provolution will be back, will start logging in and doing his own thing.
     
  5. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    We still have a good chance to win the circumnavigation race if we share maps with Cav as we go. But both teams will need to send out ships asap. We could build a caravel in Haz – or it may be possible to rush one in the fish city or in Aktau. Or could we upgrade an existing ship? Upgrading a ship is probably the wisest course.

    When do we switch to Theocracy? I think once our 3 new cities have a granary, forge, and either a barracks or lighthouse would be a good time to switch. At that point we will be building exclusively units in these three cities as well as in Osk and Taraz. Other cities will still probably need some infrastructure but they will also be building a good number of units.
     
  6. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Stop slaving. :nono: Cities are already too small. Cavalieros have at least 6 cities that have over 10 pop. We only have 2. :(
     
  7. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Slaving cities is incredibly useful and with a granary it allows cities with high food production to produce far more hammers than would otherwise be possible.

    For example the fish city.

    With a granary it requires 11+12 food for a total of 23 food to grow from 1 pop to pop 3. With a lighthouse it will generate a constant +4 food surplus (if the city works water tiles as it grows). The city will therefore grow to pop 3 after 6 turns. At this point a 2 pop whip will generate 60 hammers. That is the equivalent to 10 hammers per turn. It is impossible for this city to generate more hammers per turn. Granted we could let the city grow – which could generate more commerce – but our focus is on hammers.

    And Aktau
    Growing from pop 3 to pop 5 takes 13+14 food for a total of 27 food. I would need to double check, but I think Aktau can generate +8 surplus food at pop 3. That equals about 4 turns for the city to be able to take advantage of a 2 pop 60 hammer whip. This is equivalent to 15 hammers per turn. Again far more than we could hope to produce by letting the city grow to pop size 10.

    City growth for the sake of city growth is meaningless. Slaving allows us to optimize our use of resources in food rich hammer poor cities.
     
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I never said slaving was not useful. However, Aktau will never produce GPs if we keep slaving it. We need to grow to make more $$ and produce more GP points. That will never happen if we keep slaving. We only have 9 cities. We need them to ba as large as possible.
     
  9. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    We can't have it both ways with Aktau. Either we focus on units (which means slaving), commerce (build cottages), or great people. We can't do all of these things at the same time in the same city. We previously decided on focusing on making knights in Aktau. We can reconsider, but I don't think it will be popular right now. If we continue to focus on knights - the most efficient method of doing this is the grow to pop 5 or 6 and whip down to pop 3. It will generate far more hammers than letting the city grow.
     
  10. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

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    Regarding Universities, I never knew the plan was to whip in Shymkent. I thought this was the one city along with Haz that we were going to avoid using the whip on. It has abundant cottages and mines, making it more efficient to let it grow.

    Shymkent will finish the University in 4 turns. Is this too long to wait? During this time Haz can finish a harbor and barracks, which was discussed above.
    -------------

    Science is back to 100%, going for gunpowder.

    -------------

    If we want to continue whipping we need to get more happiness resources. We are giving away our only furs for MS's only gems (while CAV has a surplus gems). There is also incense available from both of our allies. We have an extra gold to give CAV now. Does anyone want to hammer out some resource trades?
     
  11. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    You are right about not whipping Shymket. I was not a supporter of that and I think it would be a pretty poor idea.
     
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Stop whipping altogether. Certainly don't whip Shymkent, Pavlodar or Haz at least. Get Aktau back on track to be a GP city. Haz is the science city. Pav, Petro, Whale city and Shymkent for commerce, Kyzylorda, Oskemen and Atryau can be production.
     
  13. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    @ Cavscout...what do you mean you did not know....I specificaly said do not play the turn and slave all unis THIS turn!

    @ Damrunner...oh really??? How did you calculate that...I assume you figure that having Oxford 5 turns earliers is less valuable than whipping away 2 hills and 1 plains farm.

    @ Sommer...you are majorly confused. You want to make army, attack Sancta, without slaving, yet use actau, our best slaving city, as a great people farm, to get....great people...to use them for??? You want to grow our cities to pop 10 to work....sea tiles and plains farms...which will take forever, while building almost nothing.
     
  14. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Having large cities that are working marginal tiles is a waste. That's why we slave. Far better to get buildings in that give you what ever bonus it is they give you than having large cities just for the sake of it.

    And we should be keeping an eye on the surplus resources our allies have. We should cancel the fur-gems deal with MS and just get Cav to gift us both the surplus resources we need. ie. gems to us and fur to MS.
     
  15. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    I understood that Shym would build the uni on its own and that other slower cities were doing the slaving. I don't think anyone on the team thinks we should be slaving the cottages or gold mine in Shym. But slaving other tiles to speed up Oxford does make sense.

    Generally though, I maintain that Shym is best served by not using the whip.
     
  16. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Classic example of the way decisions have been made from the start and how "democracy" has worked for us.

    You don't even know what tiles we would slave off, you don't know how fast we will grow back to work those tiles again and you don't know how many beackers we gain from 5 turn earlier Oxford.....yet you maintain that we did not slave correctly!

    Let me analyse it for you then....

    We would slave off 1 plains farm (2F, 1H), 1 plains mine (4h) & one river grass mine (1f, 3h, 1c)..total loss 8h, 3f, 1c per turn...in 5 turns is 40h (50 with forge), 15f, 5c (ignoring the fact that the city would grow back before 5 turns)

    The capital is making about 48 base commerce, that is 70 with bureocracy + 6 from the scientists with Oxford that is 82 beackers more every turn, before multipliers....with the standard 1.2 it is 98 beackers per turn...in 5 turns that is 490 beackers

    So congratulations....you just traded 490 beackers for 50h and 15f


    oh no wait we will propably tech Astronomy, which has a 1.4 pre req multiplier so infact we are trading 574 beackers for 50h and 15f...even better!
     
  17. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    The point of the "Democracy" part of the MTDemocracyGame is for everyone to be involved and thus for everyone to have fun, not for us to make "perfect" decisions about everything... that is why you are "majorly (is that even a word?) confused".

    You are also "majorly confused" about what I want. Me wanting army army army is old... Everyone on the team has given up on that. People are talking now about waiting 40-50 turns to attack SANCTA. We were slaving Unis so that we could start army fast. Since we are not belining Steel anymore there is no point slaving Unis. Let the cities grow.

    And your so-called calculations ignore the fact that if we let the cities grow they will produce more of everything. AND you also ignore that trading food/hammers/commerce for beakers is not a good trade since we give all our beakers to Cavalieros anyway. Let Cavalieros worry about tech while we grow our cities.
     
  18. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Is Cavalieros Slaving all their cities to build Unis or an army? Is SANCTA? They are both beating us...
     
  19. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Indian – I don’t appreciate the sarcasm especially considering that I agree with you.

    I don’t have BTS and cannot log into the game. I have to go off screen shots and what is said in the forums. Last screen shot I saw was from turn 130 (Sept 19) when Shym had 8 turns to finish its Uni. Then on Sept 22 Cav Scout posted this:

    “Aktau is ready to do a 2 pop whip for the University (it will grow to unhappiness in a few turns). This means that the last University will come online in Shym in 5 turns. So we start Oxford in 5 turns... perhaps a harbor would the best choice now instead of the barracks.”

    I took this to mean that the timing worked out so that Shym would grow organically while other cities slaved. Apparently I was mistaken. But that was the information I had to go on.

    The fact is I agree with you, it would make sense to whip a Shym if it speeds up oxford by 5 turns. But you never posted this anywhere until it was too late. On Sept 23 you posted the following “All unis need to be slaved this turn BTW.” You did not go into detail on why this was the case. Later that day Cav posted “Regarding Universities, I never knew the plan was to whip in Shymkent.” If you had explained why every uni (including shym) should have been slaved, I think democracy would have worked out just fine and we would have followed your advice. But the message only came out at the last min and had no rational behind it.
     
  20. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    Also on the topic of our team’s democratic structure. Cav, Indian, and I have all said that we disagree with Sommers’ views on slavery. Sommers can keep on talking about the need for cities to grow but as a team we are not following this course of action right now. There is internal dissent but at the end of the day we are still following the optimum strategy which the majority of the team supports.

    My main concern right now is that we have not had any team discussion on Aktua. I think we will continue to go with slaving knights for the time being. But some analysis on other options would be useful to determine what is really the most efficient strategy going forward.
     

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