Tactics and Strategy Turns 70-80

On a separate note. If we have OB with Saturn can't our WB enter their city? If so we should as we will be able to see a lot more of their land.
Ah, you're, sorry I should have done that last turn. I'll make sure we do so next turn, we're not in a big hurry to go anywhere now, but still... my bad
 
I think the argument that warriors make cheap MPs for happiness under monarchy is a good one. I vote we make a warrior instead of a chariot.
I also vote to improve (farm) the corn near our upcoming commerce city.

It is surprising how quickly people forget our situation....only last turn we fought a very risky battle attacking barb warriors in forest and now all our chariots are wounded with more barbs comming.

Soon we will be facing archers not warriors and attacking them in forest will not be an option.

SO we need to have more chariots available....relaxing and building cheap warriors for future hapiness is not what we need now...It is better to be safe than sorry
 
Just to make sure its clear to everyone:

Kaleb is talking about the improving the corn next to the new commerce city. It would be nice if this city could have an improved tile to work. We want it to pop quickly and Oskemen already has an improved tile.

Ok lets see what the 2 options are.

Option 1: Farm the flood and cottage flood first

turn 79: 2 workers farm flood (3 worker turns left) - corn city founded starts working unimproved corn
turn 80: 2 workers farm flood (1 worker turns left) -
turn 81: 1 worker farm flood complete - second worker cottages flood for 1 turn (3 worker turns left for cottage)
turn 82: both workers cottage flood (1 turn for cottage)
turn 83: 1 worker farms (4 turns for farm left) 1 worker finishes cottage
turn 84: both workers farm (2 turns for farm corn left)
turn 85: both workers farm corn finished
turn 86: corn city grows size 2 (working 2 imporved tiiles) both workers road

Option 2: go straight for corn

turn 79: 2 workers move to cottage and cottage for 1 turn - corn city founded starts working unimproved corn
turn 80: 2 workers farm corn(3 worker turns left) -
turn 81: 2 workers farm corn (1 worker turn left)
turn 82: 1 worker finishes corn, second cottages (1 turn for cottage)
turn 83: 1 worker finishes cottage 1 moves to farm flood (5 worker turns for flood)
turn 84: both workers farm flood (3 worker turns for flood) - corn city grows size 2
turn 85: both workers farm flood (1 worker turn left)
turn 86: 1 worker finishes flood 1 moves to road


So by farming flood first we gain:

6 :food: In Oskemen

and we have road 1 turn earlier.

by farming corn first we gain

9 :food: In Corn city

and we lose 1 worker turn on the road.


Now Oskemen has granary so 6 food in Oskemen is actually 12 :food: as it all goes to granary...

So in reality we lose 12 :food: in Oskemen and grow size 3, 2 turns earlier....compared to 9 :food: in corn city and grow size 2, 2 turns earlier.


So these are the facts....anyone can decide what they want.
 
If we build a chariot rather than a warrior it won't be ready to help the wounded chariots anyway. I don't see building one warrior as relaxing too much.

I'm a bit confused about your conclusion regarding the corn. Oskeman loses food but still grows two turns earlier? Or are you saying the 12 food we lose in Oskeman translates to the commerce city growing two turns earlier? I think two turns of growth n the new city is worth delaying the food to Oskeman.
 
It is surprising how quickly people forget our situation....only last turn we fought a very risky battle attacking barb warriors in forest and now all our chariots are wounded with more barbs comming.

Soon we will be facing archers not warriors and attacking them in forest will not be an option.

SO we need to have more chariots available....relaxing and building cheap warriors for future hapiness is not what we need now...It is better to be safe than sorry
But when are we going to switch to OR and when are we going to build a missionary?

What we need is to get iron hooked up, and as soon as we have done, start building Axemen and maybe Spearmen as well.

Pavlodar should build a missionary ASAP as soon as we've finished the settler and switched to OR. This means it won't have finished the chariot by then, so it will have to wait to complete the chariot until after the missionary is done. Or we simply delay building the missionary.

By the time the missionary is completed we'll either have iron hooked up or be just about ready to (I'll need to test to get this exact). As soon as the iron is hooked up we want to use it, not still be building another Chariot when we will have 5 already.

So it's not about sitting back relaxing. I want us to be building Axes and Spears ASAP. Chariots vs Archers aren't great, we want Axes for that, or even Swords which we'll also be able to build.

Ok lets see what the 2 options are.

Spoiler :
Option 1: Farm the flood and cottage flood first

turn 79: 2 workers farm flood (3 worker turns left) - corn city founded starts working unimproved corn
turn 80: 2 workers farm flood (1 worker turns left) -
turn 81: 1 worker farm flood complete - second worker cottages flood for 1 turn (3 worker turns left for cottage)
turn 82: both workers cottage flood (1 turn for cottage)
turn 83: 1 worker farms (4 turns for farm left) 1 worker finishes cottage
turn 84: both workers farm (2 turns for farm corn left)
turn 85: both workers farm corn finished
turn 86: corn city grows size 2 (working 2 imporved tiiles) both workers road

Option 2: go straight for corn

turn 79: 2 workers move to cottage and cottage for 1 turn - corn city founded starts working unimproved corn
turn 80: 2 workers farm corn(3 worker turns left) -
turn 81: 2 workers farm corn (1 worker turn left)
turn 82: 1 worker finishes corn, second cottages (1 turn for cottage)
turn 83: 1 worker finishes cottage 1 moves to farm flood (5 worker turns for flood)
turn 84: both workers farm flood (3 worker turns for flood) - corn city grows size 2
turn 85: both workers farm flood (1 worker turn left)
turn 86: 1 worker finishes flood 1 moves to road



So by farming flood first we gain:

6 :food: In Oskemen

and we have road 1 turn earlier.

by farming corn first we gain

9 :food: In Corn city

and we lose 1 worker turn on the road.


Now Oskemen has granary so 6 food in Oskemen is actually 12 :food: as it all goes to granary...

So in reality we lose 12 :food: in Oskemen and grow size 3, 2 turns earlier....compared to 9 :food: in corn city and grow size 2, 2 turns earlier.


So these are the facts....anyone can decide what they want.
This is a little misleading as if you followed the granary example you would always improve food for a city with a granary over one without. But by City 5 growing quicker it can also whip a granary, like we did for Aktau.

I appreciated you've done the comparison that way for a like-for-like comparison but after the corn is done those workers nead to head off to the City 6 site to mine the iron on the same turn the city is founded. Being on the corn means they are closer.
 
If we build a chariot rather than a warrior it won't be ready to help the wounded chariots anyway. I don't see building one warrior as relaxing too much.

I'm a bit confused about your conclusion regarding the corn. Oskeman loses food but still grows two turns earlier? Or are you saying the 12 food we lose in Oskeman translates to the commerce city growing two turns earlier? I think two turns of growth n the new city is worth delaying the food to Oskeman.
Yes but helping the wounded chariots is not the ONLY concern. A chariot is the only adequate defense against Archers... EVERYONE WHO RUNS TESTS knows this. In all the test simulations, barb Archers start showing up around this time. and warriors are useless against archers. We should not build anymore warriors.:(

As far as farming the Flood plain goes. Cavscout does not even want to follow the model Smoke suggests, Cavscout wants to farm the corn and then send the workers to the Iron so the floodplain in Oskemen will not be farmed anytime soon. This is because Cavscout does not want to farm the floodplain at all. Cavscout wants a cottage there. Since that idea was rejected, now Cavscout is wanting to move the workers away, hoping that we can re-visit the issue later and do a cottage instead.

I do not want this... I want a farm built now, while the workers are still there, so we do not have to waste turns backtracking to do it later. That is what you are ignoring Don, the turns wasted by backtracking. Do a test, you will see... better yet, don't do a test, just focus on getting us Metal Casting from SANCTA, that is more important.:goodjob:
 
But when are we going to switch to OR and when are we going to build a missionary?

What we need is to get iron hooked up, and as soon as we have done, start building Axemen and maybe Spearmen as well.

Pavlodar should build a missionary ASAP as soon as we've finished the settler and switched to OR. This means it won't have finished the chariot by then, so it will have to wait to complete the chariot until after the missionary is done. Or we simply delay building the missionary.

By the time the missionary is completed we'll either have iron hooked up or be just about ready to (I'll need to test to get this exact). As soon as the iron is hooked up we want to use it, not still be building another Chariot when we will have 5 already.

So it's not about sitting back relaxing. I want us to be building Axes and Spears ASAP. Chariots vs Archers aren't great, we want Axes for that, or even Swords which we'll also be able to build.

This is a little misleading as if you followed the granary example you would always improve food for a city with a granary over one without. But by City 5 growing quicker it can also whip a granary, like we did for Aktau.

I appreciated you've done the comparison that way for a like-for-like comparison but after the corn is done those workers nead to head off to the City 6 site to mine the iron on the same turn the city is founded. Being on the corn means they are closer.

It is not misleading at all..don't forget that Oskemen grows 2 turn earlier by improving flood...so it can whip a missionary or more units or a worker and then regrow faster thanks to granary...on the other hand Corn city will not be able to whip granary...granary is 60 hammer and needs 2 pop whip so the 2 turns grow size 2 earlier do not matter that much (growing to size 2 2 turns faster does not mean grow to size 3, 2 turns faster).

Also you suggest for the workers to road iron before improvinh flood farm, flood cottage and corn...I don't see this as the way to go at all...
 
Well, it's been a while since I've been able to check exact timings, and I only had time to update the test sim last night, not actually do anything with it.

A question I have for both Smokey and Sommers: Do you both agree that we need to get iron hooked up as fast as possible? I am working on this assumption, if you aren't then I can see why you think other options are better.
 
Pavlodar should build a missionary ASAP as soon as we've finished the settler and switched to OR. This means it won't have finished the chariot by then, so it will have to wait to complete the chariot until after the missionary is done. Or we simply delay building the missionary.
We Don't need a Border Pop to get Iron so the Missionary for city 6 is not urgent. I want to get one, yes but I want Chariot first.

That was the whole point of settling on the Tundra Hill instead of the tundra plain, so that we WOULD NOT need a Missionary to pop border for Iron... Remember?

after the corn is done those workers nead to head off to the City 6 site to mine the iron on the same turn the city is founded. Being on the corn means they are closer.
This is exactly what I DO NOT want, as I said in my previous comment. Sending the workers to hook up iron after they farm Oskemen is fine. They can farm the corn on their way back from city 6. City 5 does not need :food: it will grow very quickly, EVEN WITH NO FARMS. Oskemen needs :food:

I want the Farm in Oskemen NOW, because if we do not get it now it will be a long time before we farm the tile... Cavscout is wanting us to skip farming the Oskemen tile so that we can cottage it later.
 
Well, it's been a while since I've been able to check exact timings, and I only had time to update the test sim last night, not actually do anything with it.

A question I have for both Smokey and Sommers: Do you both agree that we need to get iron hooked up as fast as possible? I am working on this assumption, if you aren't then I can see why you think other options are better.

I prefer to delay iron by 3-4 turns to get the land improved before we road.
 
Also, It is much more efficient to just spend a couple turns to finish improving the :food: production of Oskemen for whipping purposes

than it is to;

BUILD a granary AND farm from scratch just to get city 5 in shape for whipping...

We ALREADY HAVE a granary in Oskemen... It does not make sense to say that we should spend turns getting granary and corn for city 5 to be able to whip... :confused: WE CAN ALREADY WHIP Oskemen. We just need to finish farm so we can whip it faster.

Most Importantly... City 5 is NOT for whipping!:( We need to let city 5 grow so that it can found Taoism right?
 
We Don't need a Border Pop to get Iron so the Missionary for city 6 is not urgent. I want to get one, yes but I want Chariot first.

That was the whole point of settling on the Tundra Hill instead of the tundra plain, so that we WOULD NOT need a Missionary to pop border for Iron... Remember?
Ok then, follow this through logically and answer a question I put to you previously that you ignored: When shall we switch to OR?

And if we delay the missionary for City 6 then it means delaying it getting Fish, are we happy to slow down the growth of both our newest cities to follow your suggestion?

Again, I am not 100% set on the course of action, I am just saying that we need to properly think through the knock-on effects of specific decisions.

This is exactly what I DO NOT want, as I said in my previous comment. Sending the workers to hook up iron after they farm Oskemen is fine. They can farm the corn on their way back from city 6. City 5 does not need :food: it will grow very quickly, EVEN WITH NO FARMS. Oskemen needs :food:
Both cities need food. I am just looking for which improvement yields us the best gain. And that's the corn. If we follow your argument then why is our other workers off improving the corn for Aktau when it already has Sheep and Deer? Shouldn't that worker be improving Oskemen as well because Oskemene needs food more than Aktau??

Cavscout is wanting us to skip farming the Oskemen tile so that we can cottage it later.
This is cavscout we are talking about here, I don't think this a factor at all. You're starting to sound like someone else I know saying things like that...
 
I prefer to delay iron by 3-4 turns to get the land improved before we road.
Is everyone else ok with this? If you want to delay hooking up the iron in exchange for city development then why on earth did you previously suggest we speed up the construction of the City 6 settler in exchange for slowing down the worker coming from Pavlodar?? :confused:

Spoiler :
Our turn is up lets leave the future discussion for a while and decide on THIS turn.

I suggest capital takes mine (to accelerate settler) and pavlodar takes cottage
Worker moves in forest and we decide next turn whether chop or road corn (works out the same anyway).
Also which turn is Pavlodar ready to be slaved for 1 pop is it this turn?

Most Importantly... City 5 is NOT for whipping!:( We need to let city 5 grow so that it can found Taoism right?
Whipping a granary will mean the city grows faster not slower tough.

I'm not suggesting here that we use City 5 as a whipping base, just that we whip the Granary to speed up overall growth. And the easiest way to guarantee we get Taoism there is to make it the only city without a religion.
 
Is everyone else ok with this? If you want to delay hooking up the iron in exchange for city development then why on earth did you previously suggest we speed up the construction of the City 6 settler in exchange for slowing down the worker coming from Pavlodar?? :confused:

Because back then the plan was to settle on tundra and use the missionary to pop borders...;)

Things have changed since then and since we obviously will settle on hill (since we used the missionary), I now think that delaying iron 3-4 turns is not crutial.
 
Ok then, follow this through logically and answer a question I put to you previously that you ignored: When shall we switch to OR?
OK, follow me logically on this... I will use lots of CAPS and ...'s to simulate pauses for dramatic effect:p

WE... DO... NOT... NEED... TO... POP... BORDERS... TO... GET... IRON.:lol: Whew, that was fun.

:lol: Im so funny... All joking aside. I don't see the relevance of your Organized Religion question, that is why I ignored it. It has no bearing on my desire to farm Oskemen or my desire to build chariot. We are building city 6 for Iron. Border pop can come later. I do want it eventually but it is not an urgent priority. Switching to Org Religion is for getting missionary to pop border, right? If there is some other reason you are so concerned about when we will get Org Rel please tell me, because I am missing it.

And if we delay the missionary for City 6 then it means delaying it getting Fish, are we happy to slow down the growth of both our newest cities to follow your suggestion?
Again City 6 is for Iron... not Fish, Not Fur. By way of illustration... Would we be building city 6 in the west, if there was no Iron there? No... we would be building another city on the Syr Darya river.

City 6 is for Iron. Border Pop cant wait, and thus OR (and when we will switch) is NOT a relevant issue.

This is cavscout we are talking about here, I don't think this a factor at all. You're starting to sound like someone else I know saying things like that...
Provo is not always wrong just because he is Provo.:) Cavscout also always accuses me of having hidden agendas, so Provo is not the only "conspiracy theorist" on the team.;) Now that you mention it, Cavscout just recently accused me of secretly wanting to scrap the CavKaz treaty (AND secretly trying to circumvent a public discussion of the issue). This was because I suggested putting pressure language in our letter to MS:confused:

So comparing me to Provo is neither insulting nor intimidating;)... we all have a little conspiracy theorist in us:). I think Cavscout is performing a little sleight of hand on you here :king: TBH. And I tip my hat to him for it... if he can pull it off :hatsoff:. We should farm Oskemen now... it will be more difficult to get it done later.
 
It will be funny to make a thread of all the things we accused each other for...I know I have accused provo for a few things...and it seems to be alot of that going on....

I have to say I did not expect so much drama signing up for this...but it is quite funny actually.

Maybe at the end of this game we give awards as well...golden hammer to the person with the most accusations...golden glove to the person who received the most accusations :lol:
 
:lol: Well said Smokey LMFAO :rotfl: I agree that all this drama has been super fun. Winning the game is objective #1 but now that I think about it... Objective #1a is having lots of fun. The last few weeks have been more fun than I have had on these threads in a long time.

We should have a thread called "Famous Flames" where we re-direct all our random arguments and accusations... I bet that if we had such a thread it would have more pages then all the other threads put together :lol:

I still think farming Oskemen and building a chariot is the way to go.
 
Yeah, I got way too many false accusations and flames, so I lost interest.
 
Bah, I just wish we could have a discussion about what we want to do without all this silly nonsense of accusing people of conspiracies and whatever.

I don't see the relevance of your Organized Religion question, that is why I ignored it. It has no bearing on my desire to farm Oskemen or my desire to build chariot.
Ok, let me explain the relevance.

If we want to build a missionary ASAP, we need to switch to OR ASAP. Doing so means (probably, I would like to test my theories) that by the time we have built the missionary we'll have iron hooked up or near enough, meaning we want to build an Axe straight away and not be finishing up the chariot.

What is interesting here is that the two people who support building a chariot in Pavlodar and farming for Osk disagree on the following:

1) Getting iron hooked up ASAP
2) Switching to OR ASAP

The only thing you and smokey agree on is what to do this turn!

We are building city 6 for Iron. Border pop can come later. I do want it eventually but it is not an urgent priority. Switching to Org Religion is for getting missionary to pop border, right? If there is some other reason you are so concerned about when we will get Org Rel please tell me, because I am missing it.
That and the 25% bonus on the granaries that Cities 5 an 6 will be building.

Again City 6 is for Iron... not Fish, Not Fur. By way of illustration... Would we be building city 6 in the west, if there was no Iron there? No... we would be building another city on the Syr Darya river.
I know that, but seeing as we are building the city we may as well make it a useful one, and it can be quite good with both the fish and the iron.

Regardless of OR, I think a monument in City 6 would be good as the first build.

Provo is not always wrong just because he is Provo.:) Cavscout also always accuses me of having hidden agendas, so Provo is not the only "conspiracy theorist" on the team.;)
Who says I was talking about Provo?? :mischief:
 
Bah, I just wish we could have a discussion about what we want to do without all this silly nonsense of accusing people of conspiracies and whatever.
This is not "silly nonsense" This is FUN!:crazyeye: THIS... IS... SPARTA! (Well I guess this is really Kazakhstan;))

If we want to build a missionary ASAP, we need to switch to OR ASAP.

What is interesting here is that the two people who support building a chariot in Pavlodar and farming for Osk disagree on the following:

1) Getting iron hooked up ASAP
2) Switching to OR ASAP
Uh, excuse me? What?!? I will use the CAPS and ...'s again since you obviously missed it:lol:WE... DO... NOT... NEED... TO... POP... BORDERS... TO... GET... IRON. :lol: again, hillarious!

BUILDING... A... MISSIONARY... IS... NOT... A... PRIORITY :lol: Smoke and I want a chariot, not a warrior, period. :king: where is this missionary/Org Rel stuff coming from?:confused:

seeing as we are building the city we may as well make it a useful one, and it can be quite good with both the fish
We don't even have a workboat under construction and we have made no plans to get one so why are you talking about Fish?:crazyeye:

The only thing you and smokey agree on is what to do this turn!
Uh... excuse me... What?!? Isn't the whole point of the tactics thread to decide what we will do next turn? :lol: If I say I want to do something THIS Turn that you disagree with... you say... "we need to take our goals & overall actions over the next few turns into account... if I say something about overall strategy, you say..."This is the tactics thread... we need to decide what to do THIS TURN" :rotfl: This game is really fun and FUNNY.:lol:

That and the 25% bonus on the granaries that Cities 5 an 6 will be building.
What?!? I thought you said you wanted to WHIP the granaries:confused: So what does the 25% bonus matter?... Answer... It doesen't :lol:

Who says I was talking about Provo?? :mischief:
Ha Ha Ha :lol: I get it... Plausible deniability :lol:
 
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