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Tactics and Strategy Turns 70-80

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Provolution, Mar 7, 2009.

  1. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Capital has 8 improved tiles to work and is currently working 7. we should get it to size 8 asap after settler by finishing granary...by the time it gets size 9 a worker from acatu will already have improved the mine and will be on his way to cottaging the forest tile.

    In short capital needs to keep growing so when we get bureocracy (which is not very far) it has the maximum population possible to make full advantage of bureocracy....building more settlers in capital is completely wrong!
     
  2. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    Why do we want Taoism to be found in Shymkent? And why we do we want to found Taoism at all? We have 2 religions!

    Bulb Taoism? Why would we want to do that? We need to make academies in high commerce cities and settle scientists in capital, to have a good late game tech rate...bulbing now will get us nowhere. There is so much we can get from tech trades and we are already giving more than they can give us...if we spend 1 scientist in bulb it should be education which is expensive tech to get our cheap universities and Oxford faster and win liberialism.


    Also how can we not defend workers but defend new cities? (like Donsig pointed out as well)
     
  3. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    And if we're having a challenge improving tiles for the cities we already have why build more cities when we don't have workers available to improve them?? That will just hinder our growth in every way.

    This is just the kind of strategy we don't want to be employing purely for the sake of slowing our research down on purpose!! That will benefit no-one.
     
  4. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    For exploring a spy will help us a lot.

    Our chariots get wounded and need to heal in our borders. A spy will not get damaged and will help us fog bust. Later it can be used to explore rival lands but in the short term a spy may be useful just for fog busting.

    Can spys see 2 spaces? In vanilla i think they can.
     
  5. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    yeah that would be rather handy.

    btw - are people happy with the following actions:
    1) Pav switches to work cottage instead of mine for 1 turn to delay warrior build
    2) New worker > SE to chop (confu missionary)
    3) worker team > finish cottage
    4) Haz works mine instead of shared cottage for 1 turn
    5) Shymkent starts granary
     
  6. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Why delay the warrior build?

    I would rather build a settler next in Pavlodar, or a Chariot, or even a Spy as opposed to a missionary.

    If we must build a missionary in Pavlodar it should at least be a Jewish missionary, not a Confu missionary.
     
  7. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    We want religion in iron city? To pop borders to work fish
     
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    As has been said countless times, we can build a monument to pop border in Iron city. We don't need a missionary for that. So if that's the main reason, we don't need a missionary.

    Also, where/when are we building the workboat for fish? No one who wants a missionary for iron city has given any plan for when we will get workboat for fish. What is the point of poping border to get fish if we cant GET the fish?!? :confused:

    If you want a missionary to spread religion to Iron city so that Taoism founds in Shymkent, then OK I agree, but that can happen much later when we are closer to bulbing Philosophy.

    Also, as I have said already... In all my tests religion speads automatically to Iron city before turn 95. It is a complete waste to build a missionary for iron city. We don't need a border pop for iron. We should definitely NOT build a missionary for Iron city.
     
  9. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I have a response, but I don't want to get in a pointless argument about this particular issue... See my response to :king:'s comment below

    I would like to respond by comparing and contrasting the different approches people want, but I would say it is a waste is folks have already made up their mind. If any of the folks criticizing the strategy I want genuinely believe that they could be persuaded to postpone missionaries and temples in favor of settlers workers and military, I will spend the time to test and post plan with screenshots. However if the disagreement is philisophical, then there can be no persuasion so I will not wast the time and energy.

    AND, FYI I am not advocating expanding purely for the sake of slowing tech This allegation is unfair and incorrect... I want to expand to incrase our land/ score / population, production capacity... yes commerce will suffer, but since we are using commerce primarily for tech and we are giving away all tech to Cavalieros... we are not gaining any advantage from commerce. Maybe we can leverage commerce for expansion for a while instead of for tech?

    About founding Taoism... see my comments in the Mid Term thread. We need Philo for liberalism BTW, remember?

    About defending cities versus workers... Defending cities requires one unit in the city. Defending workers requires units moving around to protect, not just the workers, but the improvements they build from pillaging. Also, cities defend themselves by creating a large halo of fogbusted squares. Workers do not do this. Those are some reasons why defending workers (and improvements) is a litttle tougher, no?
     
  10. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    Sommerswerd: I don't think people's minds have been made up like you describe. If you have a good argument, you should post it. "I have a response, but I don't want to get in a pointless argument about this particular issue..." >>> = not terribly enlightening. I for one, would like to see the rationale.


    Also, regarding philo. The general perception here is that we need a shrine more than we need philo right now. Remember, the question isn't "are we going to get philo"? It's "how we are going to get philo, through research or bulbing, and do we need a prophet for a shrine more at the present?"

    I personally think we need to generate a great prophet quickly. After we get the GL, it will become much tougher to get prophets because we will be generating A LOT of scientist points. And you bring up Angkor Wat for priest points. We do not have stone, and Angkor will take a long time to build... And where do we build it anyway?
     
  11. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    :lol: Mikotian... I know you did not intend this, but your above post is a perfect illustration of what I am talking about...

    Notice that you DID NOT say... "I want to hear what you have to say because my mind is not yet made up." or "Let's hear your theory because I'm still on the fence"... Instead you basically say:
    You (Sommers) should post your argument, but before even seeing your argument I (Miko) have made up my mind on the following:
    1. Most of the team wants a shrine more than Philo
    2. I have made up my mind that we need a Prophet quickly (before Philo)
    3. Once we get GL we can't get Prophets anymore (at least it will be super difficult)
    4. I think Angkor Wat is a bad idea for several reasons

    :lol: forgive me Miko but I think I will wait to see if anyone is a little more neutral, rather than do this --> :wallbash:
     
  12. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Sommers, when I make up my mind I am always willing to change it if I hear a good reason to do so. By keeping mum you don't give anyone a chance to change their mind.
     
  13. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

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    Sommers... I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic or what.
    But all I did was:
    1) Outline the general perception of the team, as per my observations
    2) My rationale for getting a Prophet before a Scientist
    3) That Angkor won't be a cake walk. Yes it will be beneficial, but it won't be easy to build.

    Obviously I'm not neutral. I have an opinion like everyone else. I do not think I have said anything that indicates that I would not consider a good counter argument. I am hoping that you will provide one.

    I also note that you never refuted my thesis...

    You have an argument. Other people disagree with you. It's your responsibility to either try to convince others or to drop your argument. We are a pretty reasonable minded team and I don't think anyone here is as dogmatic as you presume.
     
  14. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    We are gaining from tech progress. If gaining a tech gives us an edge over 3 out of 4 civs and also makes the 4th civ (that is our ally) stronger then that is an advantage, surely?

    But really, what is the point of having a city if it's not going to be working any improved tiles??

    I agree with Miko. And I don't think your summary of his stance is correct either.

    Regarding the missionary in City 6: Confu will immediately give a +1:hammers: bonus and even if it has a monument will speed growth to popping the borders. Alternatively it could skip the monument and build a granary. It is worthwhile doing.

    I know the main purpose of city 6 is for iron, but we still want to make it a useful city in it's own right. It's on a decent spot with a food, production and commerce resource. If it can get access to the fish ASAP it will develop quite nicely indeed. And with Moai it will continue to grow with out even needed workers to improve tiles = bonus!
     
  15. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    @ donsig... I appreciate your willingness to change your mind, but it really does seem that most of the team wants the prophet so I am gonna drop this fight and move to the next one.:)
     
  16. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Our turn is up, I've moved everyone except the workers.

    Are we happy with the following:
    1) Worker pair finish cottage.
    2) New Worker chops forest (and the builds a farm for Pavlodar)

    Two other things to decide:
    3) Are we happy with Shymkent building a Granary first (a monment could be handy)
    4) Do we want to shuffle Pavlodar's tiles so it works shared cottage instead of mine for 1 turn, to make warrior build coincide with settler build and revolution?

    The two barbs next to Oskemen have attacked the city and died easily. The defending warrior now has a promotion available (I would leave this promotion for later).
     
  17. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

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    granary 1st is my vote.
     
  18. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

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    @ Kaleb...why did you not put slider down to 0% this turn as I had suggested? We just lost 3 :commerce:

    It might not seem much, but it is small things like that that make a difference in this game.
     
  19. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

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    Argh, dang it, sorry you're right.

    In case anyone reading is wondering: the 3:science: were lost because the 4:commerce: cottage being used by Pav for 1 turn doesn't get the +75% bonus from Haz's academy and library.

    If we'd done 0% this turn it wouldn't have mattered, as we'll need to do a 0% at some point anyway.
     
  20. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    Why dont we move the slider back to 0% now since we don't have enough gold to make it to Aesthetics?
     

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