Take with might, lose with culture- can I stop this?

[Corrado]

So, as Gaius Aelius Corradius of the Romans, I went to war with those nasty little Greeks.

My legions were strong and capable, and I quickly blew through his border cities (capturing three 1 pop cities). Then came the problem.

He had four large (pop 5+) cities in the center of his empire. They were weakly defended, so the first (Knossus) fell pretty quickly. I left two units in to defend it, and sent the rest of my force off to conquer the next one.

But before I could take the next city, *BAM* Knossus converts back to Greek because they are "infatuated with the Greek culture". Two defending units lost, and the Greeks get their city back with a free Hoplite.

Gah!

Is there any way to stop this? I can't rush build a temple because the city is resisting, so rush builds are unavailable. Should I have left more units to defend the city? Should I wait to take the big cities until I have units in place to take *all* of the big cities in the same fell swoop? Should I have built up culture in the small 1-point cities that seperated my land from his originally (and which were taken early on)? Or should I just forget about ever capturing anything other than border towns?

 

[Gray]

you can do several things in this situation. if they are only pop 1 cities, why not just raze them and bring in your own settlers and build up your culture and crush them with that and with your legions.

you can also build up your border cities with temples and libraries (at first, more stuff after) and try keep them on your side. it may also help if you have roads to those cities so that they can benefit from any luxuries that you have already aquired. Also, try changing some of pop to entertainers for a round or two. that quells resistors and helps to restore order (along with your military units).

I am sure others will have other suggestions, these are just some basic ideas...

 

[Drew62]

The primary issue....

You need to quell the resistance when you capture the city in the first place. Gray's points are very valid, but you need to hold on to thempast the first couple of turns and to do this... ya need to drop some units in tehre to QUELL the natives.

After that follow Gray's lead....

 

[Corrado]

Well, let me try to make the situation clearer with a poorly-done map.

G G G G

R G G G

R G G G

G G G G

R=small Roman city.
G=small Greek city.
G=large Greek city.

So after a little fighting, I'm at:

R R G G

R R R G

R R G G

G G G G


That R is the five pop Greek city I just took. Razing it is *possible*, but why give up the five pop city if I can keep it?

The problem is, two turns after capture, *boom*, R goes back to G. I can't build a temple in it because it's resisting, and I can't build temples or libraries in the small cities because I don't have time (still as despot, and 1 pop cities can't rush things).

Should I just abandon the hope of taking the *big* Greek cities until after a peace (during which, I build up libraries and temples in the small cities)?

And as for quelling resisters- how do I do that? Again, I had maybe four turns from taking the city to having it convert back. Does the number of troops in the city help in quelling resisters?

 

[Gray]

yes, #s of troops helps, but this depends on your type of gov... In Despot, Mon, and Comm this helps. In Rep and Dem nope, what you need to do is change some of the citizens to entertainers. This helps keep people happy... Put in two or three troops, to quell uprising and also, consider this.

This is not Civ2. Before you go and attack someone-think about the logistics. Those size 5s will easily recapture the size 1's, personally I would just raze the size ones, and then I would stage a large scale invasions into two or all 3 of the size 5's.

Utilize mounted troops to cut the roads bt the size 5's, then attack each one with a force sufficeint to take the city. My pref would be to use 2 or 3 horse and a 2 legion each, maybe a catapult if you have it... When you capture a size 5 (or any large city-immediately make one or more citizens entertainers-seriously this help to quickly quickly quell rebellion-at least in the first couple turns).

The key here is to keep your capture folks happy and make the greeks unhappy. Do the cities get resources from luxury goods? if so, then pillaging the roadways will make the greeks unhappy. make them unhappy and make you newley captured cities happy. and they will be yours for good.

Another thing to consider, under Despotism you rush build with population. So raze those darn size 1 cities. When you capture a size 5, make 1 or 2 entertainers-make sure there is still food coming in-no shortage- do this even if it reduces shield prod-and then switch to build a temple or library. In the next round rush the temple or library using your pop points. you will then have a size 2 or 3 city with happy folks, and most like the greeks will not have long to live...

hope this made sense, i am typing while working on other stuff-so let me know if there is any confusion.

 

[ironfang]

I completely agree with the logistics aspect. If you wanna wage war, you gotta plan FAR ahead.

Quick question though. If you occupy a city with resistors, do troops actually QUELL? I know it does for Monarchy, and I plan on changing to a Democracy soon, but I have some dirty war business to conduct and I dont want to have to deal with cities reconverting all the darn time.

ironfang

 

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Corrado


But before I could take the next city, *BAM* Knossus converts back to Greek because they are "infatuated with the Greek culture". Two defending units lost, and the Greeks get their city back with a free Hoplite.

Gah!

Is there any way to stop this?

When you conquer a city like Knossos you should change all Greek labourers to entertainers and starve the city back to size 1. Then let it grow again and all the new citizens will have your nationality (I call this the ethnic cleanthing tactic). If the city is near other foreign cities build temples and libraries etc. This tactic works fine for me.

 

[ironfang]

LOL -- Ethnic Cleansing in CIV...

ironfang

 

[senseilee]

What I've done and I'm not sure it always works is:

After taking an opponent's major city, try to make peace with them. I believe their unhappy citizens won't revolt back to the other country because you're at peace with them.

sensei

 

[Daaraa]

I've never lost a city culturally.

I've always taken up 1/4to1/2 of the culture histograph.
I've also matched resitance with number of troops. (If three are resisting, I have three troops until resistence is over.) I've also tried to stab right at the heart of the other civs culture, usually thier capital in the opening turns of war. (Did this all the time in civ2 so spies buying cities were cheaper. )

So my question is, becuase I've never lost a city culturally, would it be because I have always led the culture race?

 

[Sarcastro]

Originally posted by senseilee
After taking an opponent's major city, try to make peace with them. I believe their unhappy citizens won't revolt back to the other country because you're at peace with them.

Not a bad idea. I'll try that.

My tactic: Take the city and remain at war with its former owner. Move the workers back to your homeland for a life in bondage (and not the good kind). Sell the city to a third party (preferably someone on a whole different continent) for whatever you can get. Leave your troops close by. When it culturally reverts, capture it again. Repeat.

 

[Vlad_The_Impale]

Troops do quell the rioters but you have to have a strong offensive unit in the city for EVERY rebel or it can revert ( I know from having this happen to me). The next large city I took I moved my troops in (not as many as there was rebels) but what I did this time was to starve the city down (remove ALL workers from the land) after they starve a round or two the rebel numbers to troop numbers start to get more in line and the fat lady starts singing

 

[Kinjiru]

I use a tactic similiar to Sarcastro's, except I don't sell the city.

I always go into battle with enough units to be able to lose half of them and still take two cities. I take the first large city, then move all my troops into position to be able to attack the second city on the next turn or two. This means I leave the newly captured city empty.

On the next turn, the newly captured city will revert and I will attack the second city, capturing it. I move my units back towards the first city, again leaving the newly captured city empty.

From this point it is easy to recapture both the first and second cities with this little bonus, each time you recapture, there will be fewer resistors.

When the enemy start bringing down some reinforcements, use your units to go fight them and, in the meantime, start moving some reinforcements of your own in.

*************************************

An alternate tactic, is to bring lots of extra units with you, especially outdated ones, and once you capture a city, disband your extra units in the new city. With the shields you get, you can establish a library or temple pretty quickly, even without rushing production.

 

[Bugg]

rta<Soren_Johnson_Firaxis> the chance of city defections can be lessened by a) troops b) no civil disorder c) we
love the king day d) culture and e) distance to respective capitals. e) is especially important

<Soren_Johnson_Firaxis> however, troops are very effective...as a rule of thumb, one troops disuades one
citizen from thinking of defecting...

This is what the A.I. Programmer said works. I hope they do.

 

[Ulthien]

..as a croatian, I find the need for ethnic clensing very disturbing to have made its appearance in civ 3

I wrote on another thread about my tactics lets call it Divide et Impera, which are based on the assumption:

° it is the cultural pressure that makes a city revert (back)
° the cultural pressure is felt only along (friction) borders between two empires' cities

so, what you do?

You take out the cities one line behind the border cities of the empire you intend to conquer. You choose cities on wortless grounds, like deserts, etc, conquer them and raze them down.
The enemy cities bordering to your empire are herewith left wo a border to their main empire. You conquer and rule those cities.

I always keep as much military units in a newly conquered city as the number of citizens is there, until the re-assimilation threat is way past...

 

[ironfang]

I tried the "starvation" tactic talked about earlier and met it with varying degree's of success.

In the most hostile regions where I wasnt really too concerned about the city "after the war", starvation seemed to work nicely. Reducing 12 size cities to 8 size cities seemed to keep the people under control. However, in the areas I was interested in keeping, starvation was absolutely counter productive. It kept temples from being built effectively, and it forced me to drop out of the science race in favor of high taxes to buy "cultural" items.

As of now, I only had to "raze" one city. It was more out of need than desire. I couldnt keep enough troops in the city to maintain my forward momentum. So... I've created a memorial for all the people.

On that note, when I DID raze the city, i got a crap load of workers out of it. It seems Persians are good for something.

ironfang

 

[Hobbes]

The following is a technique that I am using to capture an opponents city (and keep it), when I can't afford the luxury of razing it (there is a Wonder that I desire). Along with many of the above mentioned techniques;
bring 6 workers along with the military units, these workers will build a road as the army advances to the city. When you capture the city, add the workers to the city, and the city gets the benefit of luxury trade items that your civ has.

 

[Arrian]

The last war I fought (Reagent level, playing Babylonians, fighting Germans), I decided I didn't feel like worrying about losing cities to "German culture" after I'd captured them. This not only causes you to lose the garrisoned troops, but it can REALLY screw up your attack, as a city behind your main force may go hostile.

My solution was simple, if a bit harsh: raze 'em. I built a bunch of settlers and they followed my main army and build new Babylonian cities on or near the old razed sites. I only kept one or two German cities (tried to keep a third toward the end of the war and the damn thing reverted - serves me right for being too nice). I was able to grab the best sites, and the neighboring Zulus plus some interlopers from the other continent (Chinese & Russians) grabbed a couple of mediocre spots on the cost. That's fine by me, because those cities will always suck due to corruption, and if I really did want them, I will have the option to culturally assimilate them at some point.

-Arrian

p.s. In case you were wondering, the Germans started it, but I finished it. They have one city left on a small offshore island. It kinda reminds me of the token city I'd leave alive for the endgame in CIV II.

 

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by ironfang
I tried the "starvation" tactic talked about earlier and met it with varying degree's of success.

In the most hostile regions where I wasnt really too concerned about the city "after the war", starvation seemed to work nicely. Reducing 12 size cities to 8 size cities seemed to keep the people under control. However, in the areas I was interested in keeping, starvation was absolutely counter productive. It kept temples from being built effectively, and it forced me to drop out of the science race in favor of high taxes to buy "cultural" items.

Let's say you have captured a size 12 city, that's on a place where you want to have a city. It takes 12 turns to starve it back to a size 1 city. I think that if you can build settler and move it to that spot in less than 12 turns you should raze the city, but when it takes you longer than 12 turns to do that I say starve that city. (left out of consideration the shields spend to build that settler, which in the ethnic cleanthing tactic can be used on other units or improvements.)

 

[Richard III]

I'm having the exact opposite problem. In all four of my games, I've dominated the culture graph. It's hard to tell whether it has actually helped me in negotiations. Worse, it seems to have made me a big fat target: I've had several cities defect to me, but all of the cultural building has left me with relatively weak armies.

Step one, the cities defect. Step two, years later, foriegn armies swoop in on some unrelated provocation, take them back and keep going.

My next game will be as the Germans. Barracks will be my first city build.

R.III