1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Taking Capitals

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by ElliotS, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,704
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    Yeah, this subject again.

    The latest beta's discussion has shifted to this again, and I agree that it's not right.

    Warmongers don't take capitals most of the time. This is a silly state of affairs. The diplomatic and mechanical problems that come with them make them inferior to vassals or even just leaving them there most of the time.

    I think there are a few options that we can take:

    1- Resistance Mechanic is on all cities, not just capital. Or just remove it.
    As it is this mechanic is game-y and not effectively implemented. Everyone seems to just ignores capitals to avoid it, because winning against a bunch of angry capitals is extremely easy.

    Here's a strawpoll.

    2- Diplomatic Penalties. Should AI care more about taking capitals?
    This is actually the opposite. I think it's pretty realistic that the AI cares a bit more about you taking capitals, but it doesn't really make sense gameplay-wise. A warmonger with 15 cities and 2 capitals is actually less dangerous than a warmonger with 13 cities as is.

    I think if the other factors change it might make sense, but as it is now this contributes to the problem.

    Strawpoll.

    3- Balance goals.
    Here's a strawpoll for you to say what you think is the best balance to work towards.

    4- Wonders.
    Some have pointed out conquring wonders Oracle is somehow worse than building Oracle. (I didn't even know it was possible to have something worse than building Oracle right now, but they're right!)

    How should Wonders be factored?

    Thanks guys, looking forward to the ****show let's have a productive discussion!
     
  2. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,124
    I think I'm happy with the way it is currently, where taking a capital has harsher drawbacks.

    I think it's fine for a someone using "limited" war to purposely avoid taking capitals to avoid the drawbacks- I don't think it's a weird counter-intuitive bug, I think it's the player making a smart calculation to avoid pissing off the rest of the world. I say "limited" because in this instance the player isn't going for a true domination victory, they are just using war to make a different victory easier to achieve.

    For a player or AI that is truly going for a domination victory the calculation is much different. They must take the capitals and they will therefore face the drawbacks associated with doing so, and that is exactly where we want those drawbacks to occur- to slow down a monster warmonger a little bit and give the rest of the world a way to resist.
     
  3. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2017
    Messages:
    1,048
    Human warmongers going for Domination Victory don't take capitals either. They just cripple each opponent, then go on a victory tour claiming the capitals after they have no strong opponents left.

    The diplomatic and war penalties at this point seem so large that the city isn't worth taking unless it is a holy city of a good religion or the number of wonders gained benefit the warmonger enough to offset the rest of the disadvantages.
     
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2016
    Messages:
    6,938
    Location:
    Malaga (Spain)
    What a huge task!

    I like resistance mechanic, it's the only way that an oversized empire does not completely obliterate all its enemies. More cities, more supply limit (maybe at the cost of happiness). But it should be limited, so getting more cities is not considered a punishment. Right now, it's restricted to capitals, but it has collateral problems, I agree.

    I'd like to help with ideas, but I'm a bit ill at the moment.
     
  5. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

    Joined:
    May 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,124
    I would think it would be pretty difficult to not accidentally win a cultural victory if you had essentially crippled everyone that badly?

    There is certainly the domination tactic of sniping capitals and nothing else to win, too. Especially if many of the capitals are coastal you stand a decent chance of taking them with fast moving naval forces. Or using nukes + paratroopers to take capitals with minimal resources and then only having enough traditional military to defend capitals until they can all be taken.
     
  6. phantomaxl1207

    phantomaxl1207 King

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    769
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Indiana
    Capitals of Tradition Players are very good mind you, unless you wanted to build Wonders a few turns later. I suppose that is another benefit of the Oracle, hindering your enemies. Almost makes me tempted to build it in a throwaway city :p.

    I am a little conflicted at the Resistance mechanic. One could argue that the key to defeating other Players is through their Capital, but it is, as you stated, enough to leave them with only a few an finish them off later. I do wonder how complicated it would be to make Resistance per City taken.

    Usually I find that Capitals are usually the AIs best Cities.
     
  7. DarkZero

    DarkZero Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2015
    Messages:
    266
    Just make so captured wonders don't count towards the penalty to build new wonders, makes perfect sense since you did not constructed those yourself and its a nice balance against the massive resistance penalty you get from capitals,since 9 out of 10 wonders are build in capitals.
     
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,704
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    Yeah, and that's the point. The mechanic doesn't nerf Warmongers, it just makes them 'cultural revolutionaries'.

    That doesn't seem fun, good for gameplay, or like it's accomplishing the goals of the mechanic.
     
  9. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,848
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Easy solution for resistance mechanic would be to have it scale off of warmonger score, instead of capitals. Thus it can wax and wane, and it affects players who dislike you more than players who like you. More varied an interesting, and gets rid of the no-capitals domination meta.

    G
     
  10. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,263
    Location:
    Venice, California
    Well, that sounds like a slam dunk.
     
  11. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,704
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Chicago
    Great idea, here are some points that you might have thought of:

    1- In that case Resistance shouldn't work in your territory. Otherwise a Resistance high enough to dissuade further warmongering would also be likely enough to allow slicing their empire apart. (Which would be the biggest rage-quit EVER.)
    2- Make sure that warmonger penalty is realistically what a player considers it as. Capitals need to count similar to other cities of their quality.
    3- Make it a little more transparent, so players know what they're getting into.
    4- Consider it scaling over time, especially because you seem to cause more anger earlier.

    I do REALLY like the idea though.

    Also consider making capitals not apply the normal science and culture scalers. That would make them tasty gems worth taking, and more fun.

    Other ideas to make capturing a capital more fun and more valuable than an average city would be to not destroy buildings (Good for retaking as well.) or not increase wonder cost.

    These would add fun, make taking a capital worth it despite warmonger penalties and move towards the balance goal currently leading in question 3. Not sure if any/all would require new code, hopefully at least no buildings broken wouldn't. That's probably the best one because it would make retaking your capital potentially enable a recovery. (Rather than instantly losing.)
     
    vyyt likes this.
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,059
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
  13. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,848
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    1. That's fair.
    2. I mean, that's kinda vague. Capitals should be a bit higher than other city as they're a win condition. Generally, though, Capitals aren't worth _that_ much more.
    3. The warmonger stuff is pretty transparent re: taking cities - there's only so much info we can provide.
    4. It already does.

    Science and culture scalers? Puppet you mean?
    Capitals are already (usually) the best city...don't need much more incentive, just less disincentive.


    Cultural influence is already so good. Seriously, people dismiss it at their peril.

    G
     
  14. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,059
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
    Civ's resistance bonus against you could be calculated individually, instead of being a global value:

    2% for every city of theirs you have conquered, & 5% for conquering their capital
    2% for every foreign capital you control (not including their own)
    2% for every civ you are influential with
    then reduce that total by 1/10 of the total for every level of influence, up to 6/10 at dominant

    ie. If you were fighting France
    You have captured 5 of their cities, including their capital
    You control 2 other civs' capitals besides
    You are influential with 4 other civs
    You are "popular" (tourism lvl 4) with France then:
    Resistance = (0.02*(4)+0.05(1)+0.02(2)+0.02(4))*((10-4)/10)
     
  15. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3,218
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in California
    If civ's resistance bonus is scaled on warmonger score, then it wouldn't be global value then since each warmonger score is individually calculated.
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2017
    Messages:
    5,059
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alberta, Canada
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,848
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Ah yes, so very transparent and easy to understand. :)

    I think using warmonger alone is perfectly fine.:

    G
     
    vyyt likes this.
  18. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3,218
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in California
    On the other hand, 2:37-2:50 of this video does bring some comedic aspect.
     
    Ziad and Moi Magnus like this.
  19. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,249
    If that's a requirement, does that mean we can drop the happiness system? (ducks) :)
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    4,831
    Location:
    Beijing
    I will really enjoy if barbarians stop having extra combat strength when I take capitals. Are they going to save world?
     

Share This Page