Tall empires are extremely vulnerable from nuclear weapon. Disbalance?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Danik, Jul 9, 2011.

  1. Danik

    Danik Chieftain

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    Don't get me wrong, I LOVE tall empires, nothing is more fun for me than running a tall empire.

    You concentrate production within a few cities, which leads to an exclusive right to build wonder. Your borders are small, but very far from cities -- much easier to defend. You can exceed almost everything, you just can't afford conquering cities without razing them.

    But what is my point: the main advantage of tall empire is population, which often exceed 40 in each city in the late game.

    It means that two atomic bombs or nuclear missiles can reduce this amount by 3\4! I remind, the whole production machine and tech dominance is based on size of city population and it can go nowhere within first turn of a war!

    Did someone really get a proof of reliable protection agains nuclear weapon?
     
  2. Arilian

    Arilian King

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    I hate atomic bombs, often play indrustial / modern starts with Abombs off, so i feel your pain.
    However historically this is correct, you cannot reall work in a city where even a smaller A-Bomb was detonated, due to radiation, and WW2 fighters / AA guns were often not able to catch these bombers due to hight. (same for U2/B2 vs early jet fighters)

    But jet fighters should intercept these bombers anyway.
     
  3. Megalomano

    Megalomano Chieftain

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    Maybe a diplomatic penalty depending on the citizens killed with nuclear weapons can help here.
     
  4. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    I think that's the part of reason why I don't play tall empires, all your cities is within striking reach. heh.
     
  5. Danik

    Danik Chieftain

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    Not in a late game when Pangea is divided by two super-civs :)

    This thread:
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=429207
    says that there is no "legal" way to stop the nuke for now. Preventive attack on a city with atomic bomb is more or less effective against AI, but I can't imagine a really reliable protection against naval missile carriers.
     
  6. MadDjinn

    MadDjinn Deity

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    c'mon people... nukes are bad, M'kay?

    What's with all of the nuke threads lately anyways?

    Nukes are bad. You get lots of warning before they appear. (Manhattan Project build warning + tech time to be able to even build nukes)

    in real life, you get... a 6 min warning if you're lucky. The only 'defense' is having nukes and MADD. So why should the game be any different?

    But, as long as you aren't a backwards teched civ, you have the option of knowing where their uranium is coming from, so you can take it out before they can build anything.

    Granted, the diplomacy system should be adjusted a little to take that into consideration. A civ without nukes shouldn't DoW you (if you had nukes) unless they can overcome getting nuked.
     
  7. magnus333

    magnus333 Warlord

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    Maybe the influx of nuke complaints lately is due to more people actually getting into the late game more frequently after the patch?
     
  8. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    There is one way for the tall empire to deal with nukes, be wide at same time as tall XD
     
  9. Danik

    Danik Chieftain

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    Yes, that's the point! Tall empire claimed to be matching ("or even exceeding" - patch note) wide empires, but it, say, *licks* against nuclear cudgel.
     
  10. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    My playstyle from civ 4 haven't changed to civ 5 xD

    I just take cities and have them grow big and make them produce lots of crap.

    Firaxis only accounted for wide empires and tall empires but not Tall Wide Empire. :p

    I'm in the third.

    I don't like tall, I don' tlike wide, I like tall wide. I have so many cities that can build lots of stuff.

    I already Annexed plenty of cities prepatch, I just annex even more now. Courthouse is quite worth it now. 4gpt sucks but eh, u'll be building it in good sites only so it don't matter.
     
  11. starrywisdom

    starrywisdom Warlord

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    Civ is not a 'real life simulator'. Secondly gameplay =/= fun =/= realism Games that try to replicate 'realism' to a micro-amount are notorious for being generally 'unfun'. Gameplay, 'balance', and fun should be exponentially further up on the importance scale on a non-simulation game then replicating real life.

    Nukes in the current build of the game are utterly frustrating considering there is lack of a hard counter to it. Trying to say 'but in real life x happens' doesn't make nukes any more fun gameplay wise.
     
  12. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    There are several ways to prevent an atomic bomb attack:

    1. Don't let the opponent be that advanced
    2. Don't have any opponent cities within range
    3. Do not, under any circumstances, let them have acccess to uranium
    4. Destroy any missle-bearing vessles before they reach you

    Too many failed strategies and games around here seem to be all based on playing in your own sandbox hoping your opponents will leave you alone.
     
  13. Keejus

    Keejus Prince

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    If an opponent ever finishes the Apollo project, watch them like a cat. Don't let your guard down. Destroy them if you must.
     
  14. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    From a gameplay perspective it's a bit too powerful against cities, which is why I added a nuclear-defense bonus to the Military Base in TBC. It reduces damage to the city from nuclear detonations. :)
     
  15. nokmirt

    nokmirt Emperor

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    It must be so boring just to build up 4 cities, and then have them nuked into oblivion in one turn. Get with the program, expand, build or annex a lot of cities. Thats what civ is about, it is an empire builder. Sorry I have little sympathy for a tall empire! :)
     
  16. Buccaneer

    Buccaneer Deity

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    A bit much? So that's what balance is about, providing bonuses so the awful things in the game don't hurt as much?
     
  17. dayfax

    dayfax Chieftain

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    Is there any particular reason SDI (or whatever it was in previous versions that defended against nukes) was removed from the game?

    On smaller maps saying "don't build cities in their range" isn't really much help. I don't mind overwhelming military units, but there should be some kind of defense against them other than "take the other guy out first."

    Edit: I also remember immediate DoW from every player in the game whenever nukes were used, by anyone. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore either.
     
  18. Civsassin

    Civsassin Immortal

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    The tall/wide approach sounds suspiciously like four core tall cities and lots of wide puppets. Many players employ this strategy. If you like tall only, you don't want the tech leader next to you. Take the AI out waaaaay before it gets late in the game.
     
  19. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    Nope, I have alot alot of direct control cities with very few puppets. I let the revolt be busy emo in puppet, after its over I annex it and take direct control.

    Or, raze the city and build my own. Its a preferred approach for when i'm short on cash XD

    I think i Have like good almost 100 units running around.
     
  20. Spatzimaus

    Spatzimaus Mad Scientist

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    In the vanilla game, there is no way to stop a nuke attack.

    In certain mods, such as my own, there is. (See my sig for a link to my mod.)

    You see, the game allows for <NukeInterception> variables in Project declarations... but then doesn't DO anything with them. I don't just mean that there are no projects that use that variable, I mean that even if you made one that did, it wouldn't actually intercept anything. It's a relic from Civ4, but what's strange is, it DOES count it; there are Lua functions to return each civ's chance of interception, so it's already handling all of the variable storage for you.

    But there's a trick... use the RunCombatSim Lua event, which triggers at the start of every combat (unless you're in Strategic View or using the Quick Combat option), check to see if the attacker is a nuke, and if so, use the interception chances from the functions I mentioned above. Do a random draw, and if it succeeds, use the Units:Kill() function to destroy the nuke before the combat begins. Voila, intercepted nuke! (Also, give a text message when this happens.)

    The only headache is that while RunCombatSim normally includes information about the defender, Nukes don't HAVE a "defender", because you target a hex and not a unit/city. So you can't just use the interception chance of the intended victim; at best, you can use the interception chances of all civs currently at war with the attacker.

    In my own mod, which includes a bunch of future content, it works like this:
    > At an early future-era tech, the SDI project unlocks. It provides a 60% chance of intercepting an Atomic Bomb, a 40% chance of intercepting a Nuclear Missile, and a 20% chance of intercepting a Planet Buster. (Future mod inspired by SMAC, just go with it. PBs are basically Nuclear Missiles with infinite range and less chance of interception; they also don't use Uranium.)
    > Further down the line tech-wise are the Orbital Defense Pods: 3%/2%/1% each, but you can build 10. (They also help in other ways, like reducing the damage dealt by all orbital weapons. Yes, I have orbital weapons.) So a full set, combined with SDI, is 90/60/30%.
    > If the nuking civ is at war with 1 major civ (and any number of city-states), just use the interception chance of that civ. If they're at war with 2 major civs, multiply each civ's chance by 3/4 and then add them together. 3 civs multiply by 2/3, 4 by 5/8, 5 by 3/5, and so on. That's (N+1) / (2*N), for those playing at home.
    > Cap it on both ends: an Atomic Bomb always has at least a 30% chance of interception and at most an 83% chance. A Nuclear Missile is 20-66%, a Planet Buster 10-50%. The minima mainly are there to help city-states, who can't build Projects and so would have no way to defend themselves. These minima also represent the chance of random other defenses stopping the attack; maybe a fighter shoots down the Enola Gay before it drops the bomb, maybe James Bond sabotages the nuclear missile launch controls, maybe the missile goes off-target and hits an empty field in the middle of nowhere.
    The maxima, on the other hand, are so that if an AI is at war with four other civs it won't have 0 chance of getting through, since the AI won't really understand why its missiles aren't getting through. So no matter how stacked the defenses are, 1 in 6 atomic bombs and 1 in 3 nuclear missiles ALWAYS get through.

    It's worked beautifully in practice. Depending on the phase of the game you're in, maybe half the nukes will still get through, and yes, this'd still gut a "Tall" empire if you were unlucky. Which is where the next change came in:
    > Buildings can be given a Nuke damage reduction ability. In my mod, the Military Base reduces nuke damage by 20% in addition to its other benefits, as do several future-era buildings. The Gravity Shield reduces nuke damage by 100%, but that one's not cheap and actually LOWERS your Happiness. (People in the city don't like living in a bubble, people outside the cities feel left out...)

    The point is, while the core game might not use this sort of functionality, and have basically made Nukes undefendable, there are mods that solve this.
     

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