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Tall or wide CV?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Magma the Great, Dec 10, 2014.

  1. Magma the Great

    Magma the Great Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2014
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    Hello I was wondering for a culture victory, which is better? Tall or wide? Tall would be good for quality, but wide would be good for quantity. Also if you don't mind, what about other victories? Science? Diplomatic?
    Thanks!
     
  2. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    Beograd
    In my experience, 4-5 good cities with Tradition is the *sweet spot* for both SV and CV. Naturally, you can go Liberty and get to 7-8. Both times, I'd say a benchmark is your cap should be at least 11 pop when you get to Unis with other cities being no less than 6-8. That way you can allocate enough food, hammers and gpp (in cap) for both CV and SV, although it's generally wise to slot science specialists as soon as possible.

    However, less cities and you might struggle with tech pace if not growing fast enough, more cities and you might struggle with happiness.

    As for diplomatic path, I don't really see a preference because your game will depend on CSs a lot, and if you have a lot of CSs, happiness will hardly be an issue
     
  3. 59saintdane

    59saintdane Warlord

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    Tall, like for most things. Tall empires have faster tech pace, which lets you hit key cultural techs (archaeology, hotels, airports, NVC, internet) faster. You'll push through policies faster, you can better afford to work cultural specialist and stack GP bonuses, and you can build more cultural wonders.
    Science is tradition as well, because you get massive growth bonuses and lower tech costs than a wide empire.
    With diplo a tall empire lets you hit Globalization faster. Wide may be somewhat viable in this scenario since you have a higher gold output, but even with DV science is ultra-important.
     
  4. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Peaceful CVs: Tall is better, sadly. But every game feels almost the same.
    CVs with some or a lot of war: Liberty, and more museums and hotels. But the game will be slower.
    DomVs where you wipe everyone out except for one person, then force them to wear your jeans: fastest of all.
     
  5. Muskie

    Muskie Warlord

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    I agree, tall with 4 or 5 cities is best. My last game and first in a long while was with Theodora and I went Piety and used my religion to make money and eventually buy lots of City State friends. Eventually war came after ideologies were adopted and I gained a lot of Chinese cities, but keeping your people happy is easier with less cities. If you can use a unique ability / religion to overcome this more power, but generally you need a manageable sized empire until the game advances and you can build enough buildings to keep people happy.

    I generally play peacefully and trade a lot of luxury resources to maximize happiness.
     
  6. Shark Diver

    Shark Diver King

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    San Diego (for now)
    I'm playing a fun game where I went tall AND wide. Tradition opener, left side of Liberty, completed Tradition, and am 1 tenet from finishing Liberty but have to open Rationalism if I want to build PT.

    When I finish the current war (10+ turns if AI spam doesn't remain ridiculous), I'll end up with 8 tall cities and am going for CV. It's likely, absent any runaways, that I'll set my personal record for time.

    So the answer to the OP question is……both and/or neither. Both work depending on the game/civ.

    (BTW: this particular game will be posted in the IDS thread soon. It's a pretty fun start).
     
  7. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Not sure if I'm elaborating on your point or simply reiterating it, but I prefer tall THEN wide. Turtle up with a standard tradition 3-5 city start, get the snowball rolling, get a tech lead, then start expanding wider through conquest and expansion, have tons of hotel cities with lots of landmarks, capturing great works, eradicating the top culture producers, and taking Brazilian, French and Polynesian cities with their UIs intact and working for you. While I do agree with the more conventional CV players (fewer, taller cities, no wars, etc.) that the peaceful approach usually allows for the quickest turn-to-victory, here's two things for them to think about:

    1.) If you have 1 GWoA and an AI civ has 1 GWoA, you can trade, but then you give up yours to get theirs, for no net gain (other than theming). You can't buy it, you can't give them a tech for it, you can't even give them a city for it. There's only one way to convert the situation from "I have one/you have one" to "I have two," which is to take it by force.

    and more importantly:

    2.) You're playing a game and intend to win a CV. Siam is in the game and is a culture runaway. Morocco is in third place, behind you and Siam, but nowhere near Siam. You pass Morocco on turn 190, but are only halfway towards influence over Siam, and they just went industrial, which probably means they're gonna be digging. World religion passes, won international games, finally airports at turn 290 and it changes from, "influential in 120 turns" to "influential in 25 turns." You manage to shave a few turns off buy rushing a few airports and faith-buying some GWs, and you surpass siam at turn 310.... The point of this story?
    ...
    ...
    ...
    if you eradicated Siam you would have shaved 120 turns off the victory time.
     
  8. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    I totally agree ShakaKhan. Warring CV is by far the most fun way to win, too. It's also the most analogous with real life, in my view.

    On Deity, DomV will always be the fastest way to win, and since you can go from DomV to CV or DiploV win right near the end (admittedly not science, but to me it's a snooze-fest), it's a no-brainer it will generally be the fastest way to win on a large number of maps.
     
  9. kb27787

    kb27787 Deity

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    War = hammers
    Wonders need hammers. Hermitage needs hammers. Archaeologists need hammers

    War = unhappiness...
    Growing your capitol and other cities to size 30-40 (to get hammers) needs happiness

    War = warmonger hate
    Which means no open borders and no diplomat if in perma-war.
    Which means you might get embargoed and lose your trade route bonus with everyone.

    Also means you lose CS friends when you DoW their ally. That means less faith, culture, and WLTKD quests fulfilled.

    War = risk.
    AIs DO move their great works you know... you'd need to capture major cities to assure you get them.
    And while completely erasing a 4-city India or Brazil is quite simple, it's quite harder to erase a 20-30 city Siam, France or Polynesia.

    And let's be serious, on deity you have to commit to all-out war by the same time you're looking at building Sistine and Pisa. It's all or nothing.

    And besides... why take the city by war when you can just flip it with ideology pressure?
    This way, after you take out all the great works, you sell it back for all their luxes and gold, further plunging their empire into utter sadness, and it won't be long until another city flips again, allowing you to take more of their great works. Once you've done this you'll understand that this feeling beats taking it by force a hundred times. :lol:

    As Chinese philosophy says: Winning 100 battles out of 100 battles is impressive, but it is far more impressive to win a single battle without even fighting.
     

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