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Tall or Wide

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by rover6695, Apr 6, 2016.

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Do you play Tall or Wide?

Poll closed Apr 6, 2017.
  1. Tall

    25 vote(s)
    59.5%
  2. Wide

    17 vote(s)
    40.5%
  1. rover6695

    rover6695 Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    437
    Just curious how you usually play.
    I would love to spam cities and get a ton of land, but I just find playing wide (6 or more) is too tedious and very much stunt growth in terms of happiness, national wonders, etc.
     
  2. catweazle

    catweazle Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2013
    Messages:
    59
    Location:
    Oss, Netherlands
    A long time ago I played as The Netherlands on a huge map on king level and I had 240 cities and a happiness score of about 80-90...
     
  3. komodowaran

    komodowaran Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2014
    Messages:
    183
    wide since i play muiltplayer
    Tall just get's killed by citadels way to easy
     
  4. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,374
    Location:
    SE Minnesota
    Tall early, then often switch to a wide puppet empire after getting an ideology; annexing only the best cities and spamming trading posts in the others. Tradition-->Order works well for this. Eventually I take that free courthouse policy and start annexing everything immediately.

    I'm not good at claiming land early enough enough in the game. I've been experimenting lately with *not* taking Tradition. I started a game last night in the Renaissance era and went Exploration. (should have settled at least 3 expos but only did 2 because Shaka. I should have expanded more anyway)
     
  5. SoonerJBD

    SoonerJBD Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2016
    Messages:
    142
    I go about half and half. Sometimes I like going Tall, particularly for science or diplomacy victories. It's definitely easier to manage, and I like making "super" cities where I stake out the best dirt and then methodically build them into manufacturing and science juggernauts.

    I do like wide games, too, though. I think it is more of a challenge. It certainly requires more attention to maximize growth and manage happiness. There are more trade-offs for what you invest your resources into. But I find that to be a lot of fun, and I love dominating a continent by taking lots of territory. I particularly like going wide for domination victories. More strategic resources. More cities in which to build your armies and bomber fleets.
     
  6. danaphanous

    danaphanous religious fanatic

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,501
    I roll all my maps random and sometimes the civ too so it depends on the civ I get and the surroundings. I think I enjoy playing larger empires more then smaller ones, but if you start near tons of people with limited space it isn't your best choice. Scout aggressively and make your decision on a case by case basis. :)
     
  7. HughFran

    HughFran Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2015
    Messages:
    348
    If I play on large maps with more space, I'll go wide but on standard maps it's sometimes hard to get more than 3-4 cities anyway. That's why it is best to scout the surrounding land ASAP. If I have very close neighbours I'll go with Tradition/Tall and try to prepare myself for the inevitable war with the neighbour. When I have beaten them back and my cities are up to a good standard, I'll go on the offensive. If I have lots of land to play with I'll go Liberty/Wide and stretch out as far as I can.
     
  8. tbplayer59

    tbplayer59 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    32
    Location:
    Fountain Valley, CA
    If I see resources, I want them! I settle cities near them.
     
  9. rover6695

    rover6695 Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    437
    I usually play a standard map. So I guess most find it easier and do like me-play tall until the late eras when annexing other cities.
    Most of you do NOT settle 6+ cities on your own? That I find to be quite hard....and what I consider true wide-Self settling over 6.
     
  10. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,798
    I typically get 7-8 peaceful settles on standard size, quick speed, deity single player. I use the NQ Pangaea mapscript but it's just as easy on regular or plus Pangaea. It's possible but more difficult on continents and island maps, other people have big problems here but I don't get that as much.
    In multiplayer it's far easier. And multiplayer is small size. So the problem isn't map size, it's competitive settling, and as long as you take Liberty and REX competently, with border establishment priority and early repeat settlers, as well as a fair amount of neighbor abuse, it should be easy enough.
     
  11. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

    Joined:
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    Location:
    The Twilight Zone
    I still prefer Trad for the unmodded game when I plan on a peaceful victory, but even then I aim for 5 or 6 cities. It's not only more effective, it's also more challenging and less autopilot.
     
  12. rover6695

    rover6695 Prince

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    437
    What keeps me from settling past four is the extra cost of getting national wonders.
     
  13. Jarhead60

    Jarhead60 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 11, 2015
    Messages:
    74
    Location:
    Jax Florida
    I change up depending on which civ I am playing as well as map type and what kind of VC I am aiming for.
     
  14. Alkaid

    Alkaid Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2014
    Messages:
    208
    Almost always tall for me. I don't really dislike wide that much, it's just that on Immortal and Diety, which are what I usually play, I don't want to piss off my neighbors too much. Also, I usually follow a pretty consistent build of 3 city tradition > national college > 4th city, and by the time I settle the 4th city the AI's usually eaten up the good land within reasonable distance of my empire.

    I do usually take out some cities of at least 1 or 2 neighboring civs, even when I'm otherwise trying to play peacefully, to get resources and whatnot from them, but I don't really consider that the same as purposefully going wide.
     
  15. Volcanon

    Volcanon Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    296
    It's much harder to play wide. Tall empires don't get into happiness or money problems the way wide empires do, and can often tech up just as fast. And it's harder to defend a big empire of weaker cities that has money and happiness problems. The AI loves to triple or quadruple team me when I'm building wide.
     
  16. KingKong76

    KingKong76 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2015
    Messages:
    240
    I'd like to say that I analyse the situation depending on the lad available and the unique trait of my civ and bla bla bla, nut it would be a buch of BS!! hahaha

    I play wide only if the condtions are obvous, and I'm not extreamly good a recongnizing them.

    So most of the time Tall but I can actually play a good wide game under the perfect conditions.
     
  17. rover6695

    rover6695 Prince

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    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
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    Here's a sub question, do you ever play wide (6-8) cities with just tradition?
    I am playing a game right now as Pennsylvania, and planned on doing 4 city tradition but the way the map worked out, I ended up with 8 cities, BUT I did not do liberty, just tradition.
    Anybody done this/is this a bad strategy?
     
  18. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
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    It's a fairly bad strategy, yes, with wide play you need improvements and for improvements you need workers and for workers that are able to improve a wide empire you either need roughly 12 workers or Liberty. Plus the faster buildings are crucial if you ever want any national wonders, and the reduced global happiness from city connections keeps you afloat while representation and the Liberty opener ensure you'll ever get another policy.
     
  19. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I very often do this and it is a fine strategy. I honestly think 5/6 cities Tradition can often times be better than 5/6 cities Liberty. Once we are talking about more than 6 cities though Liberty will almost always be the superior pick.

    I'm sorry, but.. what? Twelve workers? That is completely insane.

    I consider myself someone who builds too many Workers. A general rule of thumb is number of cities + 2 (for Tradition) or number of cities +1 (for Liberty). I personally always go for number of cities +3. That is already very high. It means my second or third build in every single city but the capital will be a worker. You realize just how much that sets you back in terms of getting Granaries/Libraries/Aqueducts/Workshops up, right?

    But 12 workers, Jesus. I've never heard that in my entire life. For a 6 city (liberty) empire I'd say any number between 7 and 9 is more than sufficient, even excessive. For Tradition, maybe build one more.

    I don't think the culture penalties for founding 5 or 6 cities as Tradition are nearly as bad as you describe them, a gross over exaggeration. In addition to that I am almost certain that the (global) happiness provided by Tradition is pretty much equal to the one provided by Liberty if we are talking about six cities.

    I remember just a few weeks ago Browd providing calculations for that. The only valid point you offer in your post are National Wonders, which are severely hindered by going 6-city Tradition. They are also more important for a Tradition build than for a Liberty build, because the capital is key, so I'll give you that.
     
  20. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

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    I'm sorry I used so much hyperbole, I'll restate things with a more straightforward analysis.

    I think anything over four cities is not good for tradition; however, 5-6 really aren't good for Liberty either. Six is manageable, but if I get five with either I feel like I should've gone with the other. I think you either want 3-4 city tradition or 7-12 city Liberty.
    Twelve workers was an exaggeration, I felt nobody would take that too seriously. In reality though you'd still need a lot of workers to improve eight tradition cities; especially because they'd be growing so fast and needing tiles to work. Unless you plan on splitting and heading for citizenship you're in for a serious treat spending dozens of turns of worker manpower to get luxuries online. I play quick speed and it takes five turns to improve a mine with no modifiers; the literal one turn saved from citizenship (2 with pyramids) is very well felt for my empire. I mean the empire would function I guess alright 8 city tradition but I think I would realistically need a whole lot of workers to keep up to my taste.
    However, the bigger problem would be buildings. The 4 free monuments gives tradition cities a very very brief window of being better than Liberty cities, and most players usually are able to parlay this into a continued period of keeping up with buildings. However without republic OR the effects of legalism (which becomes an actually empty policy for the other cities, in that they're unable to gain ANY use from it at all), these cities will be a dozen turns behind from building monuments and then they'll be very VERY behind because it'll mean they didn't immediately get the granary or library or workshop up. The slow workers will mean low production, and no republic will mean low production; tradition cities are already comparably low production, but they're supposed to compensate in growth, but these tradition cities will be hundreds of hammers shorter than the earlier four and this will become very very felt. Once you get to the finisher they'll pick up, but in the meantime you're missing out on NC for a long time because of slow, slow libraries that don't get any faster because of slow mines, and slow, slow happiness because of slow slow lux improvements.
    I don't think 5-6 city anything is particularly strong, 5 cities especially, but I think that more than 4 cities with tradition are nearly a liability. Yes they'll grow fast but they'll be so absurdly hammer starved from the missing monuments, acqueducts (on the tradition side) and republic (on the wide side) that they'll have a hard time pulling their weight, especially considering there's a finite amount of workable land and tradition cities usually need more of it.
     

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