Tall, Thick, Wide

Enginseer

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|Tall|Thick|Wide
Power Generation|Strength through impressive cities and infrastructure.|Strength through rapid snowballs and growth|Strength through great expansion and might.
Strength|Territories are well-improved and easier to defend along with cities with the innate capacities to focus on wonders|Jack of both trades. May snowball overwhelmingly during an era of prosperity.|Expansive territories that allow a better grip on monopolies and cities exerting a larger influence on the world.
Weakness|Empire's strength and influence on the world may wane as time passes|Master of neither. Can fall behind with huge setbacks.|Borders tougher to hold with only a few cities capable of building immense power.
Early Preferred Policy Tree|Tradition|Progress|Authority
Medieval Preferred Policy Tree|Artistry|Statecraft|Fealty
Late Preferred Policy Tree|Rationalism|Industry|Imperialism
Preferred Ideologies|Freedom|Order|Autocracy
Settlement Style|Settle as far as possible|Settle as close as possible|Settle as much as possible.
Defense Priority|Medium|Low|High
Growth Priority|Grow as much as possible|Grow as much as specialists slots can hold|Grow as much as happiness can hold

No matter what playstyle you do, in the CTD era, you'll reach the great tall wide thickening with either playstyles(where empires grow tall and suddenly yearn to grow wide which in doing so thicken their empires among the world stage).
 
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This seems to me a silly misunderstanding of the game. I disagree with your thesis about as hard as I can.

First off there is no such thing as thick. That's not a thing. If you have 4-6 cities you're tall, if you've got 9+ cities you're wide. If you've got 7-8 cities you tried to go wide and screwed up, now declare war.

Let me point out a few cases where what you posted is clearly wrong:

Yield Modifiers Emphasis: We Love the King Days! | Would like Instant Yields instead | Golden Ages
Gazebo has stated that WLTKD is intended to be better for wide. Tall is clearly best suited to take advantage of it. Golden ages are good for everyone, but tall probably still likes it best.

Growth Priority Grow as much as possible Grow as much as specialists slots can hold Grow as much as happiness can hold
Are you saying that tall should grow past unhappiness? This is silly. Tall doesn't grow continuously because it's tall, it does it because it has less happiness concerns. You might as well have written:
Growth Priority: Grow as much as happiness can hold | Grow as much as happiness can hold | Grow as much as happiness can hold

Growth is basically always good if you can deal with the happiness.

Religion Preference May like to only pursue a pantheon. Great ease in choosing a foreign majority religion May prefer to capture a religion and reform the captured religion Would prefer to found and reform a religion. May want to put their Holy City in a non-Capital city.
If anyone is going to capture a religion it's wide. Tall is best suited towards religion.

Great People Priority Early GP Improvements / Late Bulb Mid GP Improvements / Mid Bulb Late GP Improvements / Early Bulb
What? That's the most insane thing I've read yet. You think wide should plant late? That makes no sense at all. Planting is better for tall, and the strategy is always "Plant Early, Bulb late or when you need to peak your power RIGHT NOW." I literally have no idea how you can justify this section.

I could keep going, but I have a bigger issue with this: You're conflating victory condition with size. Claiming that tall wants food and science doesn't make sense if they're going to a CV. Claiming that wide wants to go Fealty is stupid if they're going for a diplomatic victory.

Sure tall is better suited for a culture or science victory, but we've seen plenty of examples of tall diplo victories and wide science victories. The path you play depends more on your victory condition than your size. You just generally pick whatever gives you the best yields or contributes to your goal the best.

And seriously: Thick isn't a thing. Every tall civ builds builds units. Every wide civ builds buildings. The fact that you claim "No matter what playstyle you do, in the CTD era, you'll reach the great tall wide thickening with either playstyles(where empires grow tall and suddenly yearn to grow wide which in doing so thicken their empires among the world stage)." proves both that your idea of wide and thick are the same thing with slightly different priorities early game and that you don't understand tall. Tall empires don't make more cities later. They never do. Look at literally any of the deity photo-journals of tall games. None of them "suddenly yearn to grow wide". That's not a thing. You just made that up.

Lastly I know this all sounds really harsh and I don't want to come off badly. I respect you. I respect all the work you've done for this community. I know you're trying to help. But this idea is stupid flawed garbage and I'm going to do my best to tear it to pieces because it endlessly annoy
 
Well this table is a huge oversimlification and it contains major mistakes pretty much in every line.

When at its peak strength: Wide's power is early game (when you are actually you are not wide yet. This is the whole point.
Medieval Preferred Policy Tree: Thick is for sure Fealty and Wide is for sure Statecraft
Yield Modifiers Emphasis: all of those are just equal for all playstyles
Most Impactful Yields: Production and culture for all three. Science starting from Industrial. for all three again.
Settlement Style: Wide - do not settle, somebdy will do it for you.
Military Priority: Tall - Medium and Wide - low? Seriously?
Diplomacy Preference: what does that even mean? Does it have any sense?
City-State Preference: Tall - bully nearby City-States? So you need army for that, i guess Tall hase excess of production? (it does not)

First off there is no such thing as thick. That's not a thing. If you have 4-6 cities you're tall, if you've got 9+ cities you're wide. If you've got 7-8 cities you tried to go wide and screwed up, now declare war.
I'm not sure about Thick not being a thing though. I usually have exactly 8-9 cities. 4-5 seems low even for Tradition, i'd say 6-7 is Tall. Otherwise you just don't have enough food to feed all specialists in Guilds. One thing that i'm sure is that building 10+ cities with Settlers is a screw up. Better to capture if you want them.
Gazebo has stated that WLTKD is intended to be better for wide. Tall is clearly best suited to take advantage of it. Golden ages are good for everyone, but tall probably still likes it best.
Golden age is better for Tall and WLTKD for Wide? How is that possible? They just add % to whatever you have, that means they everyone benefit from them exactly the same.
 
This seems to me a silly misunderstanding of the game. I disagree with your thesis about as hard as I can.

First off there is no such thing as thick. That's not a thing. If you have 4-6 cities you're tall, if you've got 9+ cities you're wide. If you've got 7-8 cities you tried to go wide and screwed up, now declare war.
Yet you always have a game playstyle with a mix of tall and wide. If you feel like you're doing nothing as a tall, then you start expanding and thickening your civilization(removing some of the height of your empire and add it toward the length of your empire. If you feel like you're doing nothing as a wide (with further constant expansion) then you feel like you should start stagnating your expansion and build up your cities which is thickening. Tall, Thick, and Wide isn't about the number of cities you want to have. It's about the quality of the cities you want to have. Tall desires a majority of their cities to be robust with citizens and infrastructure which requires the landscape to have a diverse amount of yields(since those that aren't specialists will be working tiles and you don't want laborers). Thick desires a majority of their cities to be mediocre enough to not fall behind which means the landscape has to be plentiful with yields(this means you want to have tiles overlapped as you're not forced to improve two tiles instead of one while allowing specialists to take over an overlapped slot). Wide, however, wants a majority of their cities to be just cities with a huge amount of potential territories claimed which usually means wide civilizations can take better advantage of a snow city with only 5 iron than others can. Mainly as an empire begin to age, the distinguishing differences are lost as wars take place, but its history still lies within.

Gazebo has stated that WLTKD is intended to be better for wide. Tall is clearly best suited to take advantage of it. Golden ages are good for everyone, but tall probably still likes it best.
Since WLTKD is easier to get as a wide empire than a tall empire, it's intended to be better in the early game. I'm not exactly clear, but the emphasis is more leaning on the early game. You would rather have WLTKD as a tall empire to quickly make it grow taller (whereas later game it seems meh) while Golden Ages in the early game can make extremely good work of wide cities with an impactful double gold generation on gold tiles and an overall production boom. Thick cities start overlapping on these same and may not find enough tiles nor resources to boom the golden age off and would prefer to hold it off until much later(not raising the threshold).

Are you saying that tall should grow past unhappiness? This is silly. Tall doesn't grow continuously because it's tall, it does it because it has less happiness concerns. You might as well have written:
Growth Priority: Grow as much as happiness can hold | Grow as much as happiness can hold | Grow as much as happiness can hold
It's because it gets harder to grow more citizens taller, so you grow as much as you can for tall since you have fewer happiness concerns. If you want to be more wide-oriented, then you want to make sure you can start balancing in your urbanization slots and rural slots and especially if you want to keep constantly widening then you start using the Avoid Growth button limited by your happiness.

Growth is basically always good if you can deal with the happiness.
Which the unhappiness formula punishes you hard for trying to grow tall as thick or wide.

If anyone is going to capture a religion it's wide. Tall is best suited towards religion.
Not necessarily, if you don't want to capture a religion. It is much easier to found a religion as a wide civ than a tall civ. It's only that we have few religious civs that can play wide, that tall civs just become better suited to religion as they don't have to naturally compete with 7 possible wide civs building shrines.

What? That's the most insane thing I've read yet. You think wide should plant late? That makes no sense at all. Planting is better for tall, and the strategy is always "Plant Early, Bulb late or when you need to peak your power RIGHT NOW." I literally have no idea how you can justify this section.
I should specify on that vagueness. It's not early game, mid game, late game, but early importance(you should probably do this more), mid importance(you could care only on whichever was more beneficial), late importance(probably do this less). As a wide civ, you may prefer to bulb your great engineer for a wonder to deny a tall civ his or her wonder. In return the tall would usually either bulb denying other wonders or start planting to make a stronger bulb for wonders in the later era.

I could keep going, but I have a bigger issue with this: You're conflating victory condition with size. Claiming that tall wants food and science doesn't make sense if they're going to a CV. Claiming that wide wants to go Fealty is stupid if they're going for a diplomatic victory.

Sure tall is better suited for a culture or science victory, but we've seen plenty of examples of tall diplo victories and wide science victories. The path you play depends more on your victory condition than your size. You just generally pick whatever gives you the best yields or contributes to your goal the best.
It is a preferred policy tree. If you think you want to go wide, but changed your mind in wanting to pursue a diplomatic victory(and stop expanding), then you'll go Artistry or Statecraft.

And seriously: Thick isn't a thing. Every tall civ builds builds units. Every wide civ builds buildings. The fact that you claim "No matter what playstyle you do, in the CTD era, you'll reach the great tall wide thickening with either playstyles(where empires grow tall and suddenly yearn to grow wide which in doing so thicken their empires among the world stage)." proves both that your idea of wide and thick are the same thing with slightly different priorities early game and that you don't understand tall. Tall empires don't make more cities later. They never do. Look at literally any of the deity photo-journals of tall games. None of them "suddenly yearn to grow wide". That's not a thing. You just made that up.
Because all humans are inherently biased negatively on micromanagement(even historically without a game to relate it to). If a human was asked, "hey we have the army to basically turn our 10 cities into 40 cities, but you can't start neglecting them which means you must restore all of the razed improvements, micromanage your army more, treat them like they're your own cities. The human would likely have said no for wanting to preserve his or her time in a single game. That's why in these photojournals, the human players only start capturing cities that are more beneficial(in their mind) than their cost to micromanage. The human players would sometime (as this was a case in the early vox populi's playthroughs) capture all the AI's cities, give the rest of the more useless cities all back upon the AI's capitulation. The AI when being asked the same question to the human instead says "when do we start?"

Lastly I know this all sounds really harsh and I don't want to come off badly. I respect you. I respect all the work you've done for this community. I know you're trying to help. But this idea is stupid flawed garbage and I'm going to do my best to tear it to pieces because it endlessly annoy
Any feedback is better than no feedback.

Well this table is a huge oversimlification and it contains major mistakes pretty much in every line.

When at its peak strength: Wide's power is early game (when you are actually you are not wide yet. This is the whole point.
Medieval Preferred Policy Tree: Thick is for sure Fealty and Wide is for sure Statecraft
...
...
...
Military Priority: Tall - Medium and Wide - low? Seriously?
Diplomacy Preference: what does that even mean? Does it have any sense?
City-State Preference: Tall - bully nearby City-States? So you need army for that, i guess Tall hase excess of production? (it does not)
Fair point, it's an oversimplification since not all games are equal.
You are perhaps right the fealty and statecraft are ambigious now since its last change. :thinking:
Wide is not low on military preference.
Tall would like mutual borders to compensate for their lack of possible dig sites/map vision while wanting their tourism to spread easily to other borders. Wide would rather have their units be granted open border, but restricting it off to everybody else for they want their own dig sites to use and restrict vision to everybody else(espionage and the such).
The Bullying Formula isn't as harsh anymore nowadays with tall cities having nothing to build beside hitting the supply cap with units. They can easily bully city-states that are nearby. Wide cities just can't group up around city-states in fear that barbarians near their vast territory might start smashing pottery.
 
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I'm not sure about Thick not being a thing though. I usually have exactly 8-9 cities. 4-5 seems low even for Tradition, i'd say 6-7 is Tall. Otherwise you just don't have enough food to feed all specialists in Guilds. One thing that i'm sure is that building 10+ cities with Settlers is a screw up. Better to capture if you want them.
Thick is much more apparent the larger your game. I wouldn't call 15 cities wide when I could easily end up with 30 by mid-game when playing a proper warmonger with 22 civs. Germany for example would more easily get over-extended before peak production is achieved than a civ like Rome, but warmongering for better positioning and/or yields is still a viable option without gobbling up the continent. The difference between selective expansion and pure warmongering definitely exists when you've more than 12 civs to consider.

I should start a game. Every time I look at the civ screen I keep thinking about how to max out production or some other way to compensate for my tendency to max my war gains...Damn it I played too many Germany games.
 
Tall is just a description of an empire with a small number of cities. Wide is just a description of an empire with a large number of cities. If I wanted to further distinguish, something like a very large number of cities, I would just say "very wide". These terms are useful to more easily describe something. They aren't a strategy by themselves. You might see people on the forum claiming that "this is good for wide, but not tall". All that means is whatever is being discusses benefits having a large number cities more than having a small number of cities.

Where do we draw the line between small and large number? I don't know, it varies by map settings, and frankly I don't think its really very important. It also changes as the game goes on. 10 cities by turn 80 is extremely wide. On turn 200 its not. You also need to distinguish between puppets and other cities.

So where does thick fall into this? I don't know. It sounds like Enginseer's "thick" is wide (its describes having a large number of cities) where as his "wide" just describes war mongering. There are just so many exceptions to the ideas in this chart, I don't think you should make decisions like this.

Perhaps you play from a roleplaying point of view (which is fine, far be it from me to tell others how to play). However from a strategic, competitive point of view there are just weird ideas throughout that chart. For example, I do not ever "grow as much as possible" with tradition unless I'm India (and if I did, I would prefer fealty, not artistry).
 
Where do we draw the line between small and large number? I don't know, it varies by map settings, and frankly I don't think its really very important. It also changes as the game goes on. 10 cities by turn 80 is extremely wide. On turn 200 its not. You also need to distinguish between puppets and other cities.
Personally, I think it'd be better to drop the tall vs wide and simply state your policies and intentions. It's totally possible to go from Tradition to Autocracy if it interests you. You can get railroaded down one or the other but I don't see the benefit in keeping a hard line between your strategies in VP outside of micromanagement tolerance or discussing some specific civs.
 
but I don't see the benefit in keeping a hard line between your strategies in VP outside of micromanagement tolerance or discussing some specific civs.
This is my point. Its really quite stupid to suggest there is a "tall" strategy. There are multiple different strategies that can focus on having a small number of cities. Tall and wide are useful for discussion though (as an example, not that long ago almost all of the founder beliefs favored tall, and discussion led to changing that).
 
This is my point. Its really quite stupid to suggest there is a "tall" strategy. There are multiple different strategies that can focus on having a small number of cities. Tall and wide are useful for discussion though (as an example, not that long ago almost all of the founder beliefs favored tall, and discussion led to changing that).
Yeah I focused too much on what I quoted.

With that in mind, distinguishing each others playstyles is what it's about. Relative to the size of my games, I can't call myself thick if I settle a few cities and will comfortably ride them for the rest of the game. Thick is still vulnerable to over-extension, so I cannot call it wide as I can't overtake all the worlds expansion without a care, whereas a proper wide civ will continue to gain. The distinction is more relevant with many civs as a progress-industry civ with 14 almost entirely peacefully settled cities is in no way wide compared to the leading warmonger with over 30 or the world leader who has 20 something cities and is starting to look threatening. A thick civ has more freedom than tall, but it doesn't have the influence of wide civs on the world stage, as it simply doesn't cover enough.
Does that make sense? The distinction, to me, is somewhat tied to how your city count affects the world, which is largely tied to the policies you chose so thick has a place if you're really looking to describe your civ relative to the world stage, not just a higher city count than your typical tall civ.
 
I think another way to look at it is the shift from Culture/Science/Tourism to Gold/Faith/Hammers

More cities will slow your science and culture (tourism), but give you gold/faith/hammers if they are not puppets. So the real choice is your balance of those entities.
 
First off there is no such thing as thick. That's not a thing. If you have 4-6 cities you're tall, if you've got 9+ cities you're wide. If you've got 7-8 cities you tried to go wide and screwed up, now declare war.

Aren't tall/wide just relative descriptions?

As someone who almost exclusively plays on Huge maps, most would be running a relatively larger number of cities than on smaller maps.
 
I think another way to look at it is the shift from Culture/Science/Tourism to Gold/Faith/Hammers

More cities will slow your science and culture (tourism), but give you gold/faith/hammers if they are not puppets. So the real choice is your balance of those entities.

I think it is deceptive to look at it that way. If you have one extra City, you might have one extra City's worth of gold, but you also have one extra City to spend gold on to get infrastructure going. If you're focusing on having powerful, well-developed Cities, you don't want to always go for more Cities.

I think there are basically three playstyles - focus on Specialists, focus on infrastructure, and focus on unit production. It's really hard to do all three, and they all directly plug into victory conditions in different ways. You could roughly call them Tall (needs Pops for Specialists), Thick (it's really hard to do this one with indefinitely many Cities since after a certain point, getting Cities to 'catch up' to the rest is really hard), and Wide, I guess, but that's never how I've used the terms myself.
 
I think the distinction that Enginseer is trying to make between Thick and Wide is peaceful Wide and aggressive Wide. Like playing an insular Progress/Fealty/Industry Maya or Babylon game vs. an Authority/Fealty/Imperialism Sweden game. What he's saying is not completely wrong in that regard, like "Jack of both trades. May snowball overwhelmingly during an era of prosperity." is true since Progress benefits greatly off tech progress/infrastructure (and a ton of its bonuses scale with era).

However there are some oversimplifications and misconceptions. Progress is not the tree that wants to capture a Religion, it's the aggressive Authority player that wants that. The open border stuff is pretty irrelevant to your chosen tree and is more relevant to how powerful your opponents/your tourism are. And later emphasis on GP improvements just never make sense. Also I don't try to settle as far as possible as Tradition because that stretches my already limited GPT/supply cap/hammers.

There are different ways to play Progress/Authority, and even Tradition games have plenty of variance, enough to cross points on this chart. You simply can't fit in the whole game on a chart like this, that is the fundamental problem. Civ is a really complicated game.
 
I would present a different Trinity of grand strategies:

The first one is similar to your first one, emphasizing culture and science.

The other two differ greatly.

Progress, Statecraft, and Industry basically turn you into the British Empire, with city-state alliances replacing colonies. Trade and diplomacy, ruling the waves and the World Congress, etc.

Authority, Fealty, Imperialism is like the Byzantine Empire, but one that wiped out Catholicism and Islam, then forcibly converted India. Everyone's Orthodox now, and if you don't like it here comes the Imperial military.
 

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Tall, Thick, and Wide isn't about the number of cities you want to have. It's about the quality of the cities you want to have
Then use different words. For most people, tall means 3 to 6 cities. I never agreed with this definition, but it is what people accept.

Here you have three paradigms. A player is not forced to stick with one paradigm for the whole game, but sometimes it just happens.
1. Optimal city development. Only build units for self defense or limited preventive wars, every citizen is always working on the best possible tile or slot, next cities are settled only when they don't become a drag to progress.
2. Land rush. The focus is on controling the best terrain and hold it. Claiming first natural wonders, strategic resources, monopolies is a thing. Cities are settled just for tactical reasons (preventing passage for enemy units, being next to desired city states), even if they drag the progress of the empire.
3. Opportunistic. Both army and economy are always ready to fight, so whenever it comes an opportunity, the civ can abuse. This means the army is big, trained and upgraded the best it can be, the gold and happiness sufficient to acquaire new cities if need be. Development is secondary, but stealing is profitable, so no problemo.

While Opportunism is almost always tied to Authority and Imperialism. Playing opportunistic with Tradition is quite difficult due to the lack of gold, but maybe the map can provide. However, optimal and land-rush can be played with whichever policy. In this concept, what Enginseer is trying to summarize makes more sense.

Calling them tall, thick and wide is confusing.
 
I've never understood the Tall/Wide nomenclature's purpose. Tall -> Culture Victory makes sense, so does Wide-> Domination, but there are 4 victories and neither one is as adequate for pursuing Diplomacy as asymmetrical expansion IMO
 
I think it's also an issue of usage of the terms. If you want to describe something using a term like "wide" or "tall" is perfectly fine. If you played a game where you settled 5 cities, took a few puppets and vassalized one nation before getting a science victory, calling that Tall is the most accurate and fair.

However as far as strategy goes the game is far too fluid to prescribe strategies like that. If you want to play optimally you can't just say "I'm wide so I'll do X" you need to think about it every time. even a land-rushing warmonger needs to know when to curb his appetite to expand. Even someone aiming for a science victory needs to know when it's beneficial to declare war and take a puppet or vassal. Giving sweeping generalizations can do a lot more harm than help.

I know that you claim most of these things are "preferred" but I think even that is too much. I think saying that "non-scaling yields like city states and way of transcendence are better for tall" is fine, but the idea that your size should have any impact on your ideology is silly. There are a million factors to take into account with ideology, and all you can do by claiming that "Thick prefers Order" is hurt their decision-making process. Ideologies are very VC dependent.

At one point you could claim that a table like this would make sense. Plenty of games have very clear "best paths" and you just want to try and race down yours faster than anyone else can race down theirs.

However VP is at a beautiful state where even a domination victory might choose to pursue Artistry. There are almost no "paths", though there's plenty of synergy. Each game presents a unique set of problems that often require a different solution.
 
Because it is the usually preferred choices. The table is intended for newcomers who were introduced to new changes brought by Vox Populi (thus the oversimplification). Not to mention the preference also complements the common weakness that newbies might make such as overproducing in an expanding civ that might lack the capacity to produce which Authority can fix. For experienced players, you might see your terrain around you have tons of production and can be worked with mines but you are lacking food and more "good terrain" to expand onto, so you might try Progress or Tradition and head onto an expansive playstyle from there. And it's usually the preference because in multiple AI tests, the AI who intend to go wide or thick will go their preferred policy tree.

Tall, Thick, and Wide also has the same connotation that almost all people would always understand (Going tall is the intent of making better quality, smaller quantity cities, going wide is the intent to making numerous amount of below average cities). The # of cities cannot matter in Vox Populi due to the scaling of tech cost and culture cost per city which now greatly varies on map size (no more +3/2/1% per city). In vanilla civ 5, it was always that you made 4 cities to be considered tall and viable no matter the map size. A little more if you want to do more micromanagement. In Vox Populi, attempting to go 4 cities on a tiny map is considered wide when you factor in the huge penalty per city compared to vanilla.

As you get more experienced, you start to realize the replies in this thread that sometimes the other policy trees can complement other play styles.

Freedom carries the influence of a city on the hill that emits its power through its eminence which suits a tall playstyle.
Order carries the influence of a rising tide that slowly builds itself up suiting a thick playstyle.
Autocracy carries the influence of a lightning bolt that a sudden change can change the tide of the world theater suiting a wide playstyle.

However, if you want to go tall and go autocracy because you have multiple vassals and power that's your choice.
 
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Because it is the usually preferred choices. The table is intended for newcomers who were introduced to new changes brought by Vox Populi (thus the oversimplification).
I think the table does a very poor job of helping newcomers, because its not coherent advice and it just contradicts itself.

It also contradicts itself. As what you call tall, I am supposed to "Grow as much as possible", yet I don't prefer fealty or rationalism. Your "thick" gameplan isn't coherent either (I have a low military priority yet I am supposed to conquer a holy city?).

Let's be honest with each other. You wanted to use everything once, that is how the table is designed. Its not designed to make good choices, its designed so that each social policy and ideology is "preferred" one time. You wanted to use three different options for religion, for growth, for diplomacy, for military, etc. You didn't write this trying to make the best decisions, its very noticeable that it was written attempting to use a different piece of advice each time.
 
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