"Tall" vs. "Wide" - the specifics

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Hey Folks,

How would you guys define a Tall or a Wide empire purely in terms of:

EDIT: To clarify, this is not a thread on asking "how to play tall/wide", but what your opinion/specification on being tall/wide (whatever it may be) is.

  • number of cities
  • the population of the capital
  • the population of the core cities (how many do you consider "core"? how do you define "core"?)
  • the population of periphery/outpost cities

Assuming a Standard to Large sized, Continents (or some variation of, depending on what you like to play) map, how many cities, and what population target(s) for a good/average/bad start (or game) would an Tall or Wide empire be during:

- Ancient/Classical
- Medieval
- Renaissance
- Industrial
- EndGame
 
I consider tall less then 7 and wide 7+. I almost always do a 3 to 4 city empire. If I were to do 7 it would probably look like this

- Ancient/Classical - 4
- Medieval - 5
- Renaissance - 7
- Industrial - 7
- EndGame - 7
 
Generally going tall is making 4 or less cities and growing them as large as possible as opposed to making anymore cities. I consider these initial 4 cities to be my core cities which I may get up before my NC.

I may make more capture more cities after my NC and I would not consider these to be core cities but they can some times get very large depending upon their terrain.

Going wide generally involves liberty instead of tradition and is making 6 or more cities plus capturing more.

Tall may or may not capture cities but wide definitely intends to.
 
Tall
1-3 cities
15 - 20 population
8 or 7 on the other 2 cities

Ancient
1 city
5 population
Classical
2 cities
7 or 9 population
Other city with 3 or 4 population
Medieval
3 cities
12 or 13 population
Other city at 5 or 6 population and the newest city at 2 or 3
Renaissance
Capital 15 or 17
Other city 13 or 14
Newest city 6 or 7 population
This is a rough estimate. The rest of the eras there should be a snowball effect that gains more population for each city. If theres enough happiness through ideology or through any other source of happiness, the cities could rise up to 40, 30 and 27 or more. This is just an estimate.
 
Something really important to remember is that "Wide" has to be "Tall enough". The idea is that additional cities are supposed to compensate for cities a bit less tall.

For example (just to give an idea):
25 18 15 13 12 10 10
can compete with
30 20 19 18

But something too short like 20 10 7 7 5 6 will never compete with it.

Hey Folks,

How would you guys define a Tall or a Wide empire purely in terms of:

  • number of cities


  • Wide is 6 and more in my book. Tall is usually for tradition which does very well with 4. 5 cities is the odd one.
    [*] the population of the capital
    [*] the population of the core cities (how many do you consider "core"? how do you define "core"?)
    [*] the population of periphery/outpost cities

A very basic principal is that no matter your strategy the purpose should always be to grow as much as possible. There is no "big enough". As a result what you can expect is often a function of the map and wonders you get. On the same map let's say your 4 first cities should be around 20-30% smaller on wide.

Assuming a Standard to Large sized, Continents (or some variation of, depending on what you like to play) map, how many cities, and what population target(s) for a good/average/bad start (or game) would an Tall or Wide empire be during:

- Ancient/Classical
- Medieval
- Renaissance
- Industrial
- EndGame

You probably should avoid adding cities post medieval era even for a wide strategy. If you want more stuff, capturing it would be a good idea at that point since it won't be a city with nothing in it. As a result try to add your cities fast rather than late depending on what is your objective and by being able to tank the hapiness hit.

I have a Liberty culture victory with the Mayans on my channel too where I give an inexperienced try at Liberty (7 cities).
 
I always considered myself a wide player... <7 is considered "Tall" ?

I like to plop my starting settler immediately (I rarely move, unless onto a hill adjacent to mountain and river) and go through the Liberty tree. By the time I get my free settler I've got an idea where to send him (almost always to the coast if I've found it), then after the periods if I've built everything I want in my capital, I'll build another settler, then I'll either take or build a fourth city. I like to get my 3-5 cities as quickly as possible because I HATE having my "O Glorious Capital" that builds everything in 1 turn and my borderlands craphole that takes 3 years until my workers migrate. After the Renn (when I have crossbowmen/archers) I'll start warmongering, and either raze or puppet taken cities (I play on Prince, but somehow I'll take Byzantine's capital and it will have a shrine and stables at turn 100 and nothing else?).
 
(I play on Prince, but somehow I'll take Byzantine's capital and it will have a shrine and stables at turn 100 and nothing else?).

They may have attempted to go for, and were beaten to, a world wonder or 2, hence the wasted production time.
 
I have been playing at Emperor with just one city. You fly through Science and get most of the Wonders, even with a full set of AI players. Get PT and spend your money on RA. I find that I draw scant attention from the AI warmongers after the first attempt to rush you from somewhere. You have to anticipate this by building up units instead of settlers. After their rush fails, I just keep bribing them to fight each other. Without expansion, and the happiness penalty, luxs are expendable and Napoleon and Askia will attack anybody for a luxury of some kind.

So far, the problem is that while I have all advanced toys I have no money to upgrade because of the low tax base. So I have arty on the books but only 150 gold in the bank while I watch my neighbors shoot arrows at each other.
 
I have a habit of trying to go tall up until around mid-medieval because I know it's better for tech, before getting bored and going on a massive conquering rampage. By the end of most games I've subjugated the entire planet with 20-30+ heavily developed cities with around 15-25 population each, if I didn't win before then.
 
Something really important to remember is that "Wide" has to be "Tall enough". The idea is that additional cities are supposed to compensate for cities a bit less tall.

For example (just to give an idea):
25 18 15 13 12 10 10
can compete with
30 20 19 18

But something too short like 20 10 7 7 5 6 will never compete with it.



Wide is 6 and more in my book. Tall is usually for tradition which does very well with 4. 5 cities is the odd one.


A very basic principal is that no matter your strategy the purpose should always be to grow as much as possible. There is no "big enough". As a result what you can expect is often a function of the map and wonders you get. On the same map let's say your 4 first cities should be around 20-30% smaller on wide.



You probably should avoid adding cities post medieval era even for a wide strategy. If you want more stuff, capturing it would be a good idea at that point since it won't be a city with nothing in it. As a result try to add your cities fast rather than late depending on what is your objective and by being able to tank the hapiness hit.

I have a Liberty culture victory with the Mayans on my channel too where I give an inexperienced try at Liberty (7 cities).
I love colonizing islands and new continents on the map (usually around Industrial area) just because I love the RP of founding colonies and mimicking history and AI's, plus it adds a little interest to the late game which can get boring if you're going for anything besides domination. I'm just going to guess I'm the only idiot who does that though.
 
I have a habit of trying to go tall up until around mid-medieval because I know it's better for tech, before getting bored and going on a massive conquering rampage. By the end of most games I've subjugated the entire planet with 20-30+ heavily developed cities with around 15-25 population each, if I didn't win before then.

That sounds righteous, but by the time you do that, a tall tradition will be hogging up all the technologies and become OP by the time your units get to it.
 
I love colonizing islands and new continents on the map (usually around Industrial area) just because I love the RP of founding colonies and mimicking history and AI's, plus it adds a little interest to the late game which can get boring if you're going for anything besides domination.

You ain't the only one :cool:
 
You ain't the only one :cool:

I like turning off barbarians, choose polynesia and build a monument. Adopt liberty, build settlers and easily settle on other land masses next to luxuries. Once enough settlements un other islands are made, connect them with hammers and use their luxuries or whatever strategic resources the islands may have.
 
I like turning off barbarians, choose polynesia and build a monument. Adopt liberty, build settlers and easily settle on other land masses next to luxuries. Once enough settlements un other islands are made, connect them with hammers and use their luxuries or whatever strategic resources the islands may have.

I prefer raging barbarians (which are not raging enough for me to be honest - been tweaking around with DLL algorithms and the existing XML values for better spawning as the eras progress) - good source of culture/gold/exp farm (especially when the exp limit is raised to like 100 or something :D).
 
I prefer raging barbarians (which are not raging enough for me to be honest - been tweaking around with DLL algorithms and the existing XML values for better spawning as the eras progress) - good source of culture/gold/exp farm (especially when the exp limit is raised to like 100 or something :D).

Would you prefer raging barbarians with liberty still or with honor or any other beginning social policy?
 
Would you prefer raging barbarians with liberty still or with honor or any other beginning social policy?

Put it this way: I absolutely despise barbarians before I enter the mid-classical with swordsman or composite bows. But after that, I hunt them like a Shoshone would hunt ancient ruins.
 
I love colonizing islands and new continents on the map (usually around Industrial area) just because I love the RP of founding colonies and mimicking history and AI's, plus it adds a little interest to the late game which can get boring if you're going for anything besides domination. I'm just going to guess I'm the only idiot who does that though.

You're not the only idiot who does that. Just yesterday, as France, I founded a colony on an island five hexes (one empty, one with Incense, one with Cattle on a hill, a mountain, and Mt Fuji, and four Fish within three hexes of the city) in the early Industrial Era. I doubt it did me any good, but I just couldn't help myself.
 
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