[R&F] Tall & Wide in Rise & Fall

[cvb]

Sorry to disturb the grand philosophy of tall or wider play ... 'getting out and engaging with the world' ... ??? !!! ... civ1-4 favored "mega" cities, civ6 favors "micro" cities ... I want just a 'healthy' mixture of CITY SIZES, maybe call it 'city sizes in balance'.

 

[KayAU]

With the release of the gameplay video, we now have much more information. Of special interest for potential tall play, I noticed a tier one building in the new Government Plaza, called Audience Chamber:

• +1 amenity and +4 housing in cities with governors
• -2 loyalty in cities without governors

This is obviously aimed at tall play, since there is a fixed maximum number of governors, and you a limited number of titles which can be used for either upgrading an existing governor or getting a new one. The other two buildings, Ancestral Hall and Warlord's Throne, are aimed at expansion and conquest, specifically.

 

[Art Morte]

I really wonder how the AI is going to handle all this.

 

[shaglio]

With the release of the gameplay video, we now have much more information. Of special interest for potential tall play, I noticed a tier one building in the new Government Plaza, called Audience Chamber:

• +1 amenity and +4 housing in cities with governors
• -2 loyalty in cities without governors

This is obviously aimed at tall play, since there is a fixed maximum number of governors, and you a limited number of titles which can be used for either upgrading an existing governor or getting a new one. The other two buildings, Ancestral Hall and Warlord's Throne, are aimed at expansion and conquest, specifically.

With the addition of Governors, I wonder if Civ 5's 4-city Tall will become 7-city Tall in Civ 6.

 

[darkace77450]

With the addition of Governors, I wonder if Civ 5's 4-city Tall will become 7-city Tall in Civ 6.

I will personally be rolling with fewer than 7 cities because districts take up so much map space and I'll want to leave enough space between cities to ensure enough workable farmland to grow my populations. There's no way to do this and still have enough room for seven cities without warmongering, which is a tactic I eschew when not pursuing a domination victory. Plus some of those governor bonuses look really nice and governor titles are preciously few.

 

[Ondolindë]

What I want to try is play as Korea and utilize all 7 Governors in only 7 cities or maybe less just to maximize its ability and get to know these 7 individuals. Doing this will help me use them better in other games where I might go wider. I am excited about that.

 

[indradiva]

What I want to try is play as Korea and utilize all 7 Governors in only 7 cities or maybe less just to maximize its ability and get to know these 7 individuals. Doing this will help me use them better in other games where I might go wider. I am excited about that.

Korea's LUA doesn't seem to scale with the number of governors, however the Educator gov will profit more from it, since he already gives +20% to Science and Culture. All others will be essentially mini-versions of him, so you can retain a part of his bonus while swapping him around your empire to develop seowons and theatres. That said the bonus of LUA could still be a little higher, but they're still tweaking the numbers...

 

[pgm123]

There might be another way of thinking about this based on how titles are earned.

In a typical play, you're going to get State Workforce and Early Empire as the two civics as you enter the Classical Era. That means you can have two governors or one upgraded with a promotion upon entering the era. You get two more right before entering Medieval and two more just before entering the Renaissance. You don't get any in Renaissance. So, that means in the early and mid-game, you get six titles to work with. Each governor has a base ability and five upgrades. So, you could only have one awesome governor up until the Renaissance. Depending on the governor, that could really lend itself to a very tight play. You can keep cities close. Or go with one city and Liang with the audience chamber. +4 housing and +1 amenity. Builders get an extra charge. +30% production to City Center and Government Buildings. Build the fishery to use water tiles better. +30% production to Districts. +30% production to Entertainment buildings. City Parks give you more amenities and appeal. It's extreme, but you can build an awesome super city this way. I don't think a one-city challenge is viable yet, but you can send a few more cities out to get luxuries, strategic resources, build markets, etc. Combine it with Autocracy for the best results.

 

[KayAU]

I believe there are some other sources of titles as well. I think I spotted a Great Person who gives a title, and you do get one from the tier one government plaza building. It is certainly a limited resource, but I imagine there is a somewhat tall path now, using the Audience Chamber and carefully choosing how to use those titles. The optimal number of cities may vary depending on the situation.

I am optimistic about these changes. There certainly are provisions for making tall cities more powerful now, and there is a penalty for overextending. They have done this without using any hard caps. This should make for more interesting strategy.

 

[CPWimmer]

I really wonder how the AI is going to handle all this.

Poorly at launch, and then adequately 6 months to a year later?

 

[Silverdawn]

I believe there are some other sources of titles as well. I think I spotted a Great Person who gives a title, and you do get one from the tier one government plaza building. It is certainly a limited resource, but I imagine there is a somewhat tall path now, using the Audience Chamber and carefully choosing how to use those titles. The optimal number of cities may vary depending on the situation.

The Great Person was the Great Merchant Irene of Athens. You can get a title from the Government Plaza and then with each building you add to that district. I counted 13 GTs in the Civics tree and can redo Future Civic. I believe they also said there was a wonder that provided titles.

 

[empresskiova]

6 cities is the new tall. 1 decently leveled governor per city. (You can use the diplomat as 2 envoys and never think about her again).

+24 Housing and +6 Amenities with the Audience Hall.
Intelligence Agency gives you counterspy action for up to 7 well placed districts, plus extra spy power across the board.
Or you can use all that extra faith the religious Governer is giving you as fuel for the Grand Minister Palacs. Done right, and you can faith-draft 6 units in a single turn, perfect for defending your cities.

Each city can have it’s own special role: Wonder Whoring, Military Training, Builder Training (esp as Aztecs/China), Research Yields, Payroll, and Wildcard City (your Cap? Unless you wanted to use your cap to apadana-whore). Win by a turtle strategy, like Science. Or culture if you got enough slots and other neccesities.

 

[NegativeZero]

6 cities is the new tall. 1 decently leveled governor per city. (You can use the diplomat as 2 envoys and never think about her again).

I think the +2 envoy ability with Amani allows the player to essentially float 2 envoys to any CS and then relocate to different CSs on demand. Which may be broken with Carthage's (+1 trade route for every encampment) suzerain.
Just get the bonus, build/buy the traders (and send them) and relocate Amani to suzerain another CS while keeping the trader/routes.

I'm just concerned about the pacing of the game. The rather large bonuses governors grant will certainly speed up the pace of the game. Thus either tall or wide strategies my win too fast.

 

[stealth_nsk]

6 cities is the new tall. 1 decently leveled governor per city. (You can use the diplomat as 2 envoys and never think about her again).

As I understand, having all 7 governors decently levelled is impossible in the game. You could either have 3 decently leveled, or 7 basic ones.

And I don't think having governor in each city is a right goal. For example, having second science city will greatly benefit your science even if there's no educator governor to place into it.
So generally I don't see any changes in expected number of cities so far. With the only exception of rapid conquest (and to lesser extend - rapid expansion) strategy, which should be more difficult.

 

[Victoria]

I think I will just keep conquering, it's going to be easier than the additional management.
Big fat city of 15 pop 10 tiles always?
You will be crazy not to at least attack it to remove its population.
From what I have seen so far there is just more reason to exterminate and assimilate.
"Emergencies"... oooh I am so scared
I like immersive but this game does not encourage it

 

[Vahnstad]

With the release of the gameplay video, we now have much more information. Of special interest for potential tall play, I noticed a tier one building in the new Government Plaza, called Audience Chamber:

• +1 amenity and +4 housing in cities with governors
• -2 loyalty in cities without governors

This is obviously aimed at tall play, since there is a fixed maximum number of governors, and you a limited number of titles which can be used for either upgrading an existing governor or getting a new one. The other two buildings, Ancestral Hall and Warlord's Throne, are aimed at expansion and conquest, specifically.

You can always just place your governors in cities with low loyalty (those with higher loyalty will stay in your realms anyway), but you probably can't use Amani for city-states.

 

[KayAU]

Yes, I have thought about this. I don't doubt that you can still go much wider than 7 cities if you choose Audience Chamber, as there are ways to offset the Loyalty malus. For instance, place governors along your borders, to hold those cities, and to exert Loyalty pressure inwards. It may not be the optimal strategy, however. Hopefully, it will depend on the situation, and hopefully there will be many viable strategies in any case.

As for how many decently leveled governors you can have, it depends on what you consider decent. It looks like the cost to get the top tier promotion is 4 titles (1 for the governor, 3 for promotions). You may not need that for all of them, though. It looks like you will typically have 16-18 titles at the end of the civic tree. That could be 4 well leveled governors, or some combination of high or low level governors.

I think there is a good level of strategic depth added by the new systems, and a lot of decisions to made about what to get and in what order. I don't think there will a very clear cut between tall and wide, the way it was in Civ 5.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think I will just keep conquering, it's going to be easier than the additional management.
Big fat city of 15 pop 10 tiles always?
You will be crazy not to at least attack it to remove its population.
From what I have seen so far there is just more reason to exterminate and assimilate.
"Emergencies"... oooh I am so scared
I like immersive but this game does not encourage it

But assimilation isn't immediate, as I understand. The city will flip to free one in several turns if not backed with influence from your side. And it will not be backed in situation you describe. So, the only way to prevent big foreign cities from affecting your loyalty through military is to burn the cities to the ground. Which will make you an unlimate warmonger instntly and means you're fighting war without cities as your trophies.

 

[Victoria]

Which will make you an unlimate warmonger

Who cares? Unless they make warmonger penalties mean something, I hope they do.

Every time you take a city you reduce its population, just keep retaking it until it's pop is tiny. Not exactly historical, will give my troops great XP and as I said in another thread, I can keep repairing and looting it's tiles.

I am playing devils advocate here, currently dominating is the best way, I have seen nothing so far that will curb that. If anything with every patch domination has been strengthened. I played peaceful for many months then realised is just getting more and more domination based and to be honest it annoys me. War weariness would be a great answer if it was based on length of war as well as just unit fights, but it is not.

 

[criZp]

I really wonder how the AI is going to handle all this.

By flipping coins, like usual...