Tamils in 600 CE/Fixing up early South India

[Hightower]

So, I've commented elsewhere that I think the Tamils should be in the 600 CE scenario. Basic historical evidence for this is that the Golden Age of the Chola Empire, the most powerful civilization in Tamil history, was approximately 850-1200 CE. Additionally, their in-game leader, Rajendra Chola I, ruled in the 11th century.

Now, unlike India (whose inclusion in the 600 CE scenario at the start I've also made some argument for), no part of the Tamil UHV is expired in 600 CE. Instead, their three UHV conditions are triggered in 800, 1000 and 1200 CE.

The 800 CE UHV condition would almost certainly be impossible to meet in the 600 CE scenario, and I'm not sure about the other two. However, the 800 CE condition is historically problematic anyway, as the Tamils were weak and disunited in 800 CE, so pushing it later would not be a problem from a historical perspective. I would suggest 1000 CE. The second UHV should also be pushed later, as the Cholas did not conquer Sumatra until around 1030 CE, so I would put that UHV in 1050 CE. I would also add Sri Lanka to the territories needed for the conquest UHV (partially conquered by the Cholas in 925 CE and completely in 1018 CE), and possibly also somewhere else in SE Asia (Pagan is a possibility, though the Cholas did not control the inland city of Pagan but only the port of Pegu) The final UHV is fine, though all will need to be tested for feasibility on the 600 CE scenario and possibly tweaked.

So, basically:

Spawn date: Still 300 BCE, but included at the start of the 600 CE scenario
Spawn location: Tanjapuri (Thanjavur in Telugu, name should probably be changed) in the 600 CE start, Madurai in the 3000 BCE start (the center of Tamil learning and culture in the otherwise-disunited Sangam period, when even Thanjavur's existence is not attested)
Anuradhapura should spawn as an independent city in Sri Lanka in 100 CE on the 3000 BCE start or at the beginning on the 600 CE start, becomes Colombo on conquest by any Europeans.

UHVs:
1. 3000 gold and 2000 culture in 1000 CE (tweak for being too easy/too hard on 600 CE)
2. Control the Deccan, Sri Lanka and Sri Vijaya by 1050 CE (Sri Lanka is an added challenge due to the need for amphibious assault on indy Anuradhapura)
3. Acquire 4000 gold by trade by 1200 CE (again, tweak for being too hard on 600 CE)

UP, UB and UU are all reasonable and stay unchanged.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

That makes a lot of sense. Independent India at the start of the 600 CE scenario is pretty weird... Also, on the topic of making UHVs viable in 600 CE scenario, I think Ethiopia's UHV should be moved back a bit. Maybe they should be:

1. Found Catholisim, Orthodoxy, or Protestantism
2. Acquire 3 sources of incense by 1200 CE
3. Allow no European colonies in Africa in 1500 AD or 1900 CE

If that were to happen, the Schism should be moved back to around 1000 CE, the way it historically happened. I don't have a clue for what the trigger should be, though.

 

[soul-breathing]

That makes a lot of sense. Independent India at the start of the 600 CE scenario is pretty weird... Also, on the topic of making UHVs viable in 600 CE scenario, I think Ethiopia's UHV should be moved back a bit. Maybe they should be:

1. Found Catholisim, Orthodoxy, or Protestantism
2. Acquire 3 sources of incense by 1200 CE
3. Allow no European colonies in Africa in 1500 AD or 1900 CE

If that were to happen, the Schism should be moved back to around 1000 CE, the way it historically happened. I don't have a clue for what the trigger should be, though.

This UHV1 would be too easy to Ethiopia.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

The Indian UHVs can easily be tweaked so that they become playable in the 600AD scenario.

(1) Have a combined Shrine income of at least 35 in 850 CE (idea from RFCA).

(2) Have the highest population in 1200 CE.

(3) Allow 33 Priest Specialist slots in your cities (new idea).

The number 33 corresponds to the 33 devas in Hinduism. It's doable in game, too:

- 20 from 20 Temples.

- 6 = 3 + 3 from two Shrines.

- 3 from Angkor Wat/a 3rd Shrine.

- 4 from 2 Cathedrals.

20 + 6 + 3 + 4 = 33.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

(1) Have a combined Shrine income of at least 35 in 850 CE (idea from RFCA).

(2) Have the highest population in 1200 CE.

(3) Allow 33 Priest Specialist slots in your cities.

UHV (1) encourages different play styles for 3000 BCE and 600 CE India.

In 3000 BCE you have sufficient time to found a 3rd religion which makes it a lot easier. This represents the various other Dharmic religions, and is a callback to the founding multiple religions UHV of original RFC.

In 600 CE you are encouraged more to conquer weak and Independent Persia to gain access to its Shrine.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Agreed with this thread.

 

[Hightower]

The Indian UHVs can easily be tweaked so that they become playable in the 600AD scenario.

(1) Have a combined Shrine income of at least 35 in 850 CE (idea from RFCA).

(2) Have the highest population in 1200 CE.

(3) Allow 33 Priest Specialist slots in your cities.

The number 33 corresponds to the 33 devas in Hinduism. It's doable in game, too:

- 20 from 20 Temples.

- 6 = 3 + 3 from two Shrines.

- 3 from Angkor Wat/a 3rd Shrine.

- 4 from 2 Cathedrals.

20 + 6 + 3 + 4 = 33.

I don't want to scare Leoreth off by proposing too many tweaks too fast. Also, the last UHV should have an end date; otherwise, it's not a major challenge.

Problem with India having only late UHVs is that the two golden ages of northern India were pre-600, around 300 BCE (Mauryas) and 400 CE (Guptas), and never reached such heights again (arguably the Palas did around 800 CE, but they were never as united or as powerful). I'm not sure a late UHV is appropriate in that context.

After around 850 CE, northern India was highly fragmented until the Mughals conquered the entire area, so having north India represented by independents in the 600 CE start is not such a bad idea.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

the last UHV should have an end date; otherwise, it's not a major challenge.

Mughals

But choosing a specific date is preferable as it leads to faster game speeds.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't want to scare Leoreth off by proposing too many tweaks too fast.

Too late, I've run away and am currently hiding under a rock.

 

[Novicenoble]

Too late, I've run away and am currently hiding under a rock.

GL for making v 1.12, 1.13, 1.14, 1.15 and merging K-mod too

 

[Leoreth]

The rock doesn't have a compiler, unfortunately.

 

[civ_king]

The rock doesn't have a compiler, unfortunately.

Okay okay, what you need to do is acquire 23 cobblestone, six sand, two redstone dust and three coal

1) Put eight cobblestone in a 3x3 square missing the centre to craft a furnace.
2) Put the rest of the cobblestone in the top slot and two coal in the bottom slot then wait for it to finish.
3) Empty the furnace then put the sand in the top slot and coal in the bottom slot
4) Empty the furnace and the glass in a 2x3 formation to make glass panes.
5) With smooth stone arrange it like in step two and put a glass pane in the middle to craft a monitor
6) Arrange the remaining seven smooth in a horseshoe configuration, put a redstone in the middle and a glass pane at the bottom...

 

[baseballpie]

He needs some wood from a tree to make a bench to make all this stuff on.

 

[Leoreth]

okay okay, what you need to do is acquire 23 cobblestone, six sand, two redstone dust and three coal

1) put eight cobblestone in a 3x3 square missing the centre to craft a furnace.
2) put the rest of the cobblestone in the top slot and two coal in the bottom slot then wait for it to finish.
3) empty the furnace then put the sand in the top slot and coal in the bottom slot
4) empty the furnace and the glass in a 2x3 formation to make glass panes.
5) with smooth stone arrange it like in step two and put a glass pane in the middle to craft a monitor
6) arrange the remaining seven smooth in a horseshoe configuration, put a redstone in the middle and a glass pane at the bottom...

The result:

HE BUILT A MOD! UNDER A ROCK! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!

 

[soul-breathing]

The Indian UHVs can easily be tweaked so that they become playable in the 600AD scenario.

(1) Have a combined Shrine income of at least 35 in 850 CE (idea from RFCA).

(2) Have the highest population in 1200 CE.

(3) Allow 33 Priest Specialist slots in your cities (new idea).

The number 33 corresponds to the 33 devas in Hinduism. It's doable in game, too:

- 20 from 20 Temples.

- 6 = 3 + 3 from two Shrines.

- 3 from Angkor Wat/a 3rd Shrine.

- 4 from 2 Cathedrals.

20 + 6 + 3 + 4 = 33.

Then we should make the Mughal spawn conditional.

The UHVs are wonderful though.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Thanks! I'm rather fond of the 33 devas idea.

I don't think Mughal spawn should be conditional since the Mongol spawn is not. Mughals to India is what Mongols are to China. Without the Mughals, India can easily become overpowered like how China would be overpowered without the Mongols, because you can easily shut out Barbs (with Great Wall in China's case and the surrounding mountains in India's case) and use your UP to build up an unbeatable economy.

However, Mughals should have a smaller Core and flip zone (but better Stability). The southeast corner of its flip zone should be somewhere around Delhi at most, instead of letting it flip Pataliputra. If it is to maintain its current flip zone it should spawn later around 1500, with earlier Muslim presence in India represented by Barb units and automatic spread of Islam into Indian cities (which destabilizes them).

 

[Hightower]

Thanks! I'm rather fond of the 33 devas idea.

I don't think Mughal spawn should be conditional since the Mongol spawn is not. Mughals to India is what Mongols are to China. Without the Mughals, India can easily become overpowered like how China would be overpowered without the Mongols, because you can easily shut out Barbs (with Great Wall in China's case and the surrounding mountains in India's case) and use your UP to build up an unbeatable economy.

However, Mughals should have a smaller Core and flip zone (but better Stability). The southeast corner of its flip zone should be somewhere around Delhi at most, instead of letting it flip Pataliputra. If it is to maintain its current flip zone it should spawn later around 1500, with earlier Muslim presence in India represented by Barb units and automatic spread of Islam into Indian cities (which destabilizes them).

I agree with this. I think the Mughals should spawn in about 1180 CE in Lahore, flipping Herat (representing the original Ghor homeland of the Delhi sultans), with a much bigger stack but not much else going on. That way, they'll actually fight the north Indians instead of just getting north India handed to them.

(In theory, Lahore should also be conquered by the Seljuks most games; it was, after, the capital of the Ghaznavid Empire, which is represented by the Seljuks in-game.)

 

[Lone Wolf]

Without the Mughals, India can easily become overpowered like how China would be overpowered without the Mongols,

I think the Tamils limit India enough. Furthemore, at least the Mongol and the Chinese core areas are somewhat different. Having two civs with the same core is always unelegant (see also Khmer/Thailand). Right now, the Mughals are the reason why India proper is marginalized. It's just weird that India is, um, rarely present in India. China respawns more or less fine, India doesn't.

 

[DC123456789]

I definitely agree with shrinking the Mughal core and moving it west.

 

[BenZL43]

So then Dilli didn't flip to Mughal at the beginning but become capital of Mughal only when they capture it.