Tang Taizong or Wu Zetian?

[Huayna Capac357]

In my mod I am working on, I am undecided: who should be the Chinese emperor. I have Tang Taizong currently, but I am unhappy with the Ancient and Modern versions. The other possibility I am considering is Shiro's Wu Zetian. I would like to know your opinion. Who should be the leader?

Previews:

Tang Taizong



Wu Zetian



Thanks.

 

[Pounder]

I personally use Li Shimin (Tang Taizong).

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Frankly, I'm very partial to Shiro's Wu Zetian (and not just because she's pretty ) but also because she was a very interesting historical figure. China had only one reigning female monarch in history (unlike Korea and Japan which historically have had female sovereigns), but this didn't mean that females were totally powerless and there were many instances in which an empress or a concubine would make use of political connections to influence the direction of the empire (Empress Dowager Cixi being the most well-known example).

I should note that Shiro also released his own version of Tang Taizong, which looks a lot more like the historical portraits.

 

[timerover51]

I voted for Tang Taizong, but think that in at least the modern version, the beard and mustache look quite out of place. In the Ancient version, you can barely see the beard, so I would get rid of it.

 

[wolf_brother]

I should note that Shiro also released his own version of Tang Taizong, which looks a lot more like the historical portraits.

If you're referring to this then it should be noted that Shiro only half released that LH, as the pcx files were never publicized for it.

 

[Steph]

I vote other.

I'm personnally against the use of LH for an epic mod spanning thousands of years, and I think a flag leaderhear is better.

LH should be used only for short period scenarios.

 

[georgestow]

I use Wu in my mod, but mainly because there aren't enough female leaders.
In all honesty, I think both LHs are of excellent quality, and so it's quite a tough choice.

 

[timerover51]

I vote other.

I'm personnally against the use of LH for an epic mod spanning thousands of years, and I think a flag leaderhear is better.

LH should be used only for short period scenarios.

You do have a point there, Steph. I was thinking that you should really use four different leader heads for each civilization. Say for France, Vercingetorix for the Ancient Age, Joan of Arc for the Medieval Age, Napoleon for the Industrial Age, and De Gaulle for the Modern Age. Something like that for every civilization.

 

[Steph]

That would be a little more acceptable, although Vercingetorix from 4000 BC to 400 AD would still be an extreamly nice longevity.

In fact I started like that, but I was not very happy with the result.

The problem with this approach is the impossibility to have a different name or different trait for each era.

I hope that next year version of my editor will allow to specify a name and traits for each era, and allow more eras.

This way I could have Vercingetorix, Clocis, Charlemagne, Louis IX, Francois 1er, Henri IV, Louis XIV, Napoleon, De Gaulle, all with different traits, if I want .

And I could also have the name of the civilization as Gaul in the 1st Era, Frank in the 2nd, French in 3rd and 4th .

 

[D.Durand]

Voted for Shiro's one.

In game, with the animations, Shiro's LH are look really better than Firaxis ones.

 

[timerover51]

That would be a little more acceptable, although Vercingetorix from 4000 BC to 400 AD would still be an extreamly nice longevity.

In fact I started like that, but I was not very happy with the result.

The problem with this approach is the impossibility to have a different name or different trait for each era.

I hope that next year version of my editor will allow to specify a name and traits for each era, and allow more eras.

This way I could have Vercingetorix, Clocis, Charlemagne, Louis IX, Francois 1er, Henri IV, Louis XIV, Napoleon, De Gaulle, all with different traits, if I want .

And I could also have the name of the civilization as Gaul in the 1st Era, Frank in the 2nd, French in 3rd and 4th .

The real problem is that there are very few civilizations that can trace their history back to 4000 BC. The only ones that I can think of would be the Egyptians and the Chinese. And I think that a leader head should represent the leadership of that era, not viewed as the ruler for the entire period.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

The Chinese really only go back to 2000 BC at the latest.

Sumer, Egypt, India, and (MAYBE with some massive caveats and still not a whole lot of understanding) Norte Chico go back to 3500 or 3000 BC, but certainly not 4000.

 

[timerover51]

The Chinese really only go back to 2000 BC at the latest.

Sumer, Egypt, India, and (MAYBE with some massive caveats and still not a whole lot of understanding) Norte Chico go back to 3500 or 3000 BC, but certainly not 4000.

I was thinking of civilizations that were still in existence today, which would not include Sumer. Not sure about India, the Harappan civilization goes back to maybe 33rd Century BC, but I would not regard that as a precursor to the later Indian civilization. China, I might give the benefit of the doubt too.

 

[MeteorPunch]

The enitire Civ epic game is pseudo reality, with probably dozens or hundreds of things that don't make sense if you look at it realistically, so I think it's fine to be liberal on these things. Scenarios though, should try to be more accurate.

I voted for Wu because I like the way her look, especially with 4 different haircuts, progresses through the ages.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

The enitire Civ epic game is pseudo reality, with probably dozens or hundreds of things that don't make sense if you look at it realistically, so I think it's fine to be liberal on these things. Scenarios though, should try to be more accurate.

I voted for Wu because I like the way her look, especially with 4 different haircuts, progresses through the ages.

Agreed strongly here. Civ was never intended to be really "realistic" but abstract. Civs represented by specific leaders is an abstraction and I think leaderhead choice should be chosen on the basis of who best represents a civ at its zenith or its values.

In this case, both Tang Taizong and Wu Zetian are both interesting possibilities for a Chinese leaderhead. Taizong represents the Tang Dynasty, which most consider one of the great heights of Chinese civilization; on the flipside, Tang Dynasty culture is much different than the Chinese culture we know today. Wu Zetian represents the Machiavellian politics of the Chinese court as well as the frequent instances of elite women manipulating politics from behind the screen; on the other hand, women in actual leadership roles in pre-industrial China was extremely rare [although one can use the Wu leaderhead to represent Lady Hao of Shang, Wu Zetian of Tang / Later Zhou, and Cixi Taihou of Qing].

Ultimately, it should simply be up to the modder.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

However, it's nice to have LH because it says "Whoa! I'm talking to such and such a famous person! Cool! I love how their clothing is different in this age than in their real age! This is so cool!"

Having flags is thus meh.

 

[Steph]

I'm not against leaderheads per se, I just find them better for scenario than epic games.

 

[timerover51]

I'm not against leaderheads per se, I just find them better for scenario than epic games.

I would agree with Steph, unless you had different leader heads for each age. I still am not that thrilled with Cleopatra as the Egyptian leader head, considering that she was actually of Greek extraction. If you need to have a female Egyptian leader, Hatshepsut would be much more suitable.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

I renamed Cleo Hatshepsut in this mod.

And, as a side note, should I call them Tang Taizong and Wu Zetian or Li Shi Min and Wu Zhao?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I renamed Cleo Hatshepsut in this mod.

And, as a side note, should I call them Tang Taizong and Wu Zetian or Li Shi Min and Wu Zhao?

Even though Civ3 Cleo looks like she comes from Alabama with a Banjo on her knee?

It's your call with the leader names. Li Shi Min and Wu Zhao were personal names respectively, so official histories (and even the general public) would refrain from referring to them as such, lest they risk the headman's axe!