Tanks Obsolete?

[Eduardo72]

I'm sure this has been raised but how annoying is this!

I'm going along beating the AI with infantry due to a severe lack of oil on the map. Finally get two oil and decide it's time to spam tanks and wipe them out. The thing is that I've researched the modern armour tech by now and tanks are obsolete and no longer appear on the build list, only modern armour. Problem is I don't have any uranium to build em or even researched the tech for uranium. WTF? Am I missing something or is this an unforgivable oversight?

 

[burleigh]

The latter. As soon as the new unit comes along, the previous one is obsolescent. Your people are a bit thick, and have forgotten what oil is and how to make your basic tank.

 

[Proteus]

I wouldn't blame the Firaxis QA team for this.
IMHO this is a game design choice ... and its problems should already been foreseeable at this (design) stage

Hopefully at one time they change it into a system where you can build the older units until you actually have the resources to build the newer versions

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I prefer the units actually going truly obsolete.

I could see a "if 0 resources you can upgrade/build in encampment for 3-5x as much as normal"

 

[Proteus]

In a way, I have to admit, that the resource system is a little bit inflexible (and doesn't take into account substitutes)

Look at the example of MBTs.
I guess, the requirement of uranium is because of US tanks needing depleted uranium for their SABOTs and part of their armor.
But now look for comparison at the Leopard 2 ... its current version (Leo 2A7) is one of the best MBTs worldwide and also one of the most exported ones ... but it doesn't need any Uraium at all, using armor that needs no dU and using Tungsten instead of dU fore the SABOTs.

And I guess other countries MBTs (like the japanese Type 10) also have no requirement for Uranium.

So, in real life Uranium isn't a hard requirement for MBTs.

Other examples would be african countries, which used camels instead of horses (in classical/early medieval times) for their mounted troops,
or the south-american countries, which created obsidian swords instedad of ones made out of metal.

Perhaps an expanded resource system would be great, which has more resources and allows for "OR"-Clauses when it comes to the requirement of resources (for example (Knight = "Horses OR Camels") or (MBT = "Uranium OR Tungsten"))

 

[Larsenex]

I play on 'abundant' resources' and that way everyone is a winner...(just like the California educational system).

 

[xcrissxcrossx]

This is ridiculous. Just because the weaker powers knew how helicopters worked in WW2 doesn't mean they stopped fielding cavalry divisions.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, it still feels like you should be able to build the best one in the line that you have access to. Especially since in many cases, the resource comes at the exact same time as the unit, it means you're locked out. So say you get gunpowder, and have Niter in your territory, but not connected. It means that until you get a builder there, you can't build swordsmen or musketmen. If at least the resource always came first, then you at least always have a chance to research that and get it hooked up before using it.

 

[Larsenex]

I think one of the reasons the Ai does not upgrade is its cheaper to leave the older units as is.

I do agree we should be able to build older units, although I do think the way it is now is to assist the ai in building an army and forcing it to use the most current one it has tech for rather than the fastest/cheapest one it can build. Its just a theory and I have no proof this is the case.

What would be kinda cool would be to have either a military or econo card that allows you to build anachronistic units because of lack of material. Lots of historical cases for this as well.

 

[smartcanuck1988]

Indeed it is stupid. It's not financially viable to only produce the most high-tech units when older models can still do certain jobs just fine.

Part of me thinks they did it this way hoping to force the AI to upgrade its units (failed) and to make use of "colonial wars" policies (works poorly).

I think they should allow us to build units of the same class from the current "generation" and the previous generation too. So at Modern Armor both it and Tanks are available to build but Knights disappear.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Indeed it is stupid. It's not financially viable to only produce the most high-tech units when older models can still do certain jobs just fine.

Part of me thinks they did it this way hoping to force the AI to upgrade its units (failed) and to make use of "colonial wars" policies (works poorly).

I think they should allow us to build units of the same class from the current "generation" and the previous generation too. So at Modern Armor both it and Tanks are available to build but Knights disappear.

The gaps are too big already... the idea is if you have the tech for modern Armor, you can produce Modern Armor...or Gunships (not the same/upgradable, but similar)

if you have the tech for Swords you can produce Swords or spears.... Muskets or Pikes... Bombards or crossbows...

Its only Really bad with coal where you have to rely on Privateers for navy

 

[smartcanuck1988]

The gaps are too big already... the idea is if you have the tech for modern Armor, you can produce Modern Armor...or Gunships (not the same/upgradable, but similar)

if you have the tech for Swords you can produce Swords or spears.... Muskets or Pikes... Bombards or crossbows...

Its only Really bad with coal where you have to rely on Privateers for navy

I guess a reason to limit your options with newer units is to reduce clutter from the production list and to avoid spamming cheap units the entire game to block movement or other cheesy maneuvers. And of course to limit the AI in what it can produce.

But I think the criteria right now is way too strict. Would people complain though if it was something like this: If you have Modern Armor tech, and you have connected Uranium, then you must build Modern Armors. When you lose the Uranium but have Oil connected, you fall back to producing Tanks.. and so on. Basically, the game still limits you to one unit per class, but it's a unit that you have the tech for and the resources. I'm thinking out loud here not really sure if this is any better.

 

[skyclad]

I guess a reason to limit your options with newer units is to reduce clutter from the production list and to avoid spamming cheap units the entire game to block movement or other cheesy maneuvers. And of course to limit the AI in what it can produce.

But I think the criteria right now is way too strict. Would people complain though if it was something like this: If you have Modern Armor tech, and you have connected Uranium, then you must build Modern Armors. When you lose the Uranium but have Oil connected, you fall back to producing Tanks.. and so on. Basically, the game still limits you to one unit per class, but it's a unit that you have the tech for and the resources. I'm thinking out loud here not really sure if this is any better.

I think its a great idea. Another option is to Have a "obsolete units" tab in the production list which is hidden by default. You can expand it if you wish but it doesnt bother noobs or people who dont need it at the moment.
I think this is a problem, and its an even bigger problem for UUs! For example I had basically no time at all to build samurais because i teched gunpowder and they went obsolete...

 

[Raider]

In Civ 4, if you had the tech but not resources to produce newer units, you could build an earlier version. So, in the case of OP, he would still be able to produce tanks.

But, not terribly surprised at this oversight given the state of Civ 6.

 

[Edgehopper]

Aside from the game design problem, it's just bizarre that uranium would be the necessary resource for Modern Armor. Nuclear powered tanks are futuristic, not modern.

 

[Proteus]

Aside from the game design problem, it's just bizarre that uranium would be the necessary resource for Modern Armor. Nuclear powered tanks are futuristic, not modern.

I guess that is because US tanks use depleted uranium for the SABOTs and part of the armor layers.
But there are other competitive modern tanks that don't need any depleted uranium at all, for example the german Leopard 2.
So, uranium as necessary resource for modern tanks surely doesn't make sense

 

[Big J Money]

I'm kind of torn.

They obviously did this for gameplay and balance reasons. The idea is like other elements of Civ VI, you need to sort of know the tech tree and plan ahead.

Yet I agree it's terribly unintuitive and confusing. Especially the first time you encounter it. It also lacks any sense of theme; in fact it breaks theme in half and laughs in its face. Immersion be damned!

I'm hoping someone will come out with a really good mod that overhauls the system but retains the balance, strategy and gameplay aspects of it.

 

[g0mer]

There's actually a better example earlier in the game. if you research bronze working and then iron working, but don't have enough iron sources, you can't produce any melee units for a little while. Ran into it once, all I could do was upgrade the couple I had until I built an encampment (had one source of iron). It needs to not be as limiting as it is, for sure.

 

[bbbt]

I don't understand why they didn't keep the ability to turn them into tourist improvements like you could in 5 - one would think that would work well in the current model.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Currenet system is *awful* for balance reasons, as well as AI.

Many techs that enable new resource type also obsolete previous unit that does not need new resouce.

Thus getting muskets or iconclads, or even advanced flight for better planes, is 50:50 gamble will you get better units or lose access to current units, thus giving you disadvanyage over opponent that did not get new tech.

If you are unlucky your military will become wore then before tech is researched.

If anything, this hurts AI a lot more then player, since AI would not be able to find creative way to get missing resource. And especially hurts city states, which would stay with stone age armies that can not be upgraded and would need to produce any resourcles units as replacement from scratch.