[RD] Taxes are actually not theft

[Farm Boy]

"All these privileges just keep sticking to me! I can't do anything about it! It's not right though. Let's brush some off of you here, and here, and here, and oh look! Those stuck to me too!"

 

[Berzerker]

Well, in your example, the Mafia gave you 12 years of free schooling, a series of legal rights, and access to an amazing source of customers and employees.

And the rough draft of their 'pay for service' policies were written before you were even born ...

So, I mean, there are oodles of people who want someone else's work for free. And of those people are a subset of people who think of themselves as rightwing

My Mafia example was in response to this:

"even if they do not use public infrastructure or emergency services, they do still enjoy the security provided by the existence of military and armed forces"

 

[Synobun]

Your example falls short since the only thing the mafia protects you from is the mafia.

 

[Farm Boy]

I don't think that's true. Once government starts failing to provide services people need/want(and it can certainly selectively fail, read "gangs" as one presentation), the mafia arises for good reason. I mean, you're right that this is how people generally understand the mafia, since it absolutely does prey upon people, but it doesn't provide zero services. The longer it collects from the same people and becomes stable, the more services it's likely to offer extending.

 

[Hehehe]

You're free to leave if somebody doesn't build a wall to stop you... You're free to leave if someone says you're free to arrive somewhere else, and you're free to leave after you pay any taxes imposed on people who want to leave. The 'contract' (I didn't sign it) politicians cite as their justification for taxes is the Constitution. That document limits the purposes for taxation, it defines which powers the government has and which powers may be funded. Government taxation and spending beyond those powers is not in the contract, yet much of what Congress does isn't in the Constitution.

If you want to make this an argument about US law, then I suggest that you take it up with the US government. I'm talking about taxation in general.

If the local Mafia shows up for the protection money and you decide to stop paying, does the freedom to leave mean the Mafia aint stealing from people?

What services does mafia provide? Do majority of the people agree to what the mafia is doing? This is a contrived example and you know it.

The taxes paid by Syrians are being used to buy the bombs dropping on their heads, is that theft?

Since Al-Assad isn't voted on, then I suppose in that case you could make the argument that it is indeed theft.

If I showed up at your door demanding money because I help make the neighborhood safer, are you obliged to pay me?

If the social contract, which we all voted on, says yes, then sure.

Based on your logic people who pay fewer taxes are stealing from those who pay more.

Not at all. Stealing is when you take something without someone else's consent (as for taxation, you're giving your consent by being in the country, you are free to leave anytime). The people who pay fewer taxes are enjoying those services with consent from the government.

 

[Berzerker]

Your example falls short since the only thing the mafia protects you from is the mafia.

If you were gonna rob a business, would you hit one paying protection money to the Mob or one that doesn't? There are two reasons people pay the Mafia - protection from them and protection from other people. If somebody does rob you the Mafia will hunt them down and justice wont take years and more taxes to provide the robber with free room and board.

So what happens if you stop paying the government for protection? They come and get ya and take yer stuff... At least with the Mafia the local Don might take pity on you if you're among the poor and downtrodden or some other reason. You wont get much sympathy from the government's hired guns hauling you away.

 

[Synobun]

I don't think that's true. Once government starts failing to provide services people need/want(and it can certainly selectively fail, read "gangs" as one presentation), the mafia arises for good reason. I mean, you're right that this is how people generally understand the mafia, since it absolutely does prey upon people, but it doesn't provide zero services. The longer it collects from the same people and becomes stable, the more services it's likely to offer extending.

I'm finding it difficult to properly articulate my retort because you're not wrong but I don't think you're right either. Mafias and mafia-like organizations rarely operate in a vacuum, even when governments neglect the citizenry. They operate within a preexisting societal structure and tend to be what you need protection from to begin with. Most protection rackets are better described as extortion. If you pay, you're protected. If you don't pay, your business and family will be in danger. What goes unstated is that the people responsible for the protection and for the danger are one and the same.

That becomes more complex when there are rival organizations vying for control of certain neighbourhoods but you're still in danger from the people claiming they are there to protect you if you refuse their benevolent offer.

 

[Synobun]

If you were gonna rob a business, would you hit one paying protection money to the Mob or one that doesn't? There are two reasons people pay the Mafia - protection from them and protection from other people. If somebody does rob you the Mafia will hunt them down and justice wont take years and more taxes to provide the robber with free room and board.

A transition from petty to organized crime is not what I would consider a benefit from being under the caring wings of a mafia organization. The type of crime changes but the circumstance of crime existing does not. If you truly believe your government is an ally of the thief, you have bigger problems to address than which mafia you lay in bed with.

So what happens if you stop paying the government for protection? They come and get ya and take yer stuff... At least with the Mafia the local Don might take pity on you if you're among the poor and downtrodden or some other reason. You wont get much sympathy from the government's hired guns hauling you away.

Your stuff? Seems like the stuff was made by the society you're consciously choosing to steal from. They're just reclaiming what you've wrongfully taken.

Since we're discussing this in the context of the US, you don't go to jail for not paying taxes. You go to jail for consciously operating yourself in a manner that blatantly avoids paying taxes because you want to evade the system without losing out on the benefits of the system. You're more than welcome to go rough it in some backwater woodland entirely divorced from society. There are people who do that. Go wild.

You can't, however, expect to live in the middle of a primary society while being divorced from the social contract unless you have a secondary society to back you up as the Amish/Mennonites do. Even these are held to some expectation and cannot act as they please. You are a victim to the world you are born in and taking issue that you were born into society seems fairly infantile and on par with complaining that you weren't born as a sports car.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm finding it difficult to properly articulate my retort because you're not wrong but I don't think you're right either. Mafias and mafia-like organizations rarely operate in a vacuum, even when governments neglect the citizenry. They operate within a preexisting societal structure and tend to be what you need protection from to begin with. Most protection rackets are better described as extortion. If you pay, you're protected. If you don't pay, your business and family will be in danger. What goes unstated is that the people responsible for the protection and for the danger are one and the same.

That becomes more complex when there are rival organizations vying for control of certain neighbourhoods but you're still in danger from the people claiming they are there to protect you if you refuse their benevolent offer.

Sounds a lot like the police when you aren't in a group that gets along with the police. Which is one rival organization that competes for overlapping powershare.

 

[Synobun]

Sounds a lot like the police when you aren't in a group that gets along with the police. Which is one rival organization that competes for overlapping powershare.

Any discussion about this will fall apart if you structure the argument from the perspective that the police are worse/on par with organized crime. As I mentioned to Berzerker, if that's the situation then you have bigger problems to worry about than the face of the extortion racket you're a part of.

 

[Farm Boy]

I didn't. Or, at least, I didn't try to. I think there is merit in being above the board. But the fact remains, even predatory mafias that you would prefer don't exist do provide a measure of services.

 

[Lexicus]

Your example falls short since the only thing the mafia protects you from is the mafia.

Well, the mafia might also protect you from other mafia families or something.

Any discussion about this will fall apart if you structure the argument from the perspective that the police are worse/on par with organized crime. As I mentioned to Berzerker, if that's the situation then you have bigger problems to worry about than the face of the extortion racket you're a part of.

Consider that from the perspective of black America, this is largely true.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Your example falls short since the only thing the mafia protects you from is the mafia.

And they also protect you from wise guys.

 

[Hygro]

Maybe theft is taxes

When you factor rate of theft into your arranged social formation, yeah

 

[El_Machinae]

If you were gonna rob a business, would you hit one paying protection money to the Mob or one that doesn't? There are two reasons people pay the Mafia - protection from them and protection from other people. If somebody does rob you the Mafia will hunt them down and justice wont take years and more taxes to provide the robber with free room and board.

So what happens if you stop paying the government for protection?

For the record, I'd be okay with people opting out. You're not allowed to use public spaces and you forgo the use of the courts or the police.

The country maintains its monopoly on force, of course. You'd not be allowed to commit violence. But you'd also be protected specifically from violence as well.

But it doesn't work like that. The best we can do is show you the subscription service fees for next year's transactions. And then you decide if you want to earn new money in our infrastructure.

I've a lot of sympathy for property tax. I mean, property is purchased with the *expectation* of tax. But a jacking up of rates means you have to decide to move or not. It's similar to not being able to sign a lease. That's kinda crummy. I don't like them.

 

[Berzerker]

What services does mafia provide? Do majority of the people agree to what the mafia is doing? This is a contrived example and you know it.

you didn't answer my question

Since Al-Assad isn't voted on, then I suppose in that case you could make the argument that it is indeed theft.

If the social contract, which we all voted on, says yes, then sure.

Not at all. Stealing is when you take something without someone else's consent (as for taxation, you're giving your consent by being in the country, you are free to leave anytime). The people who pay fewer taxes are enjoying those services with consent from the government.

I'm not even sure the majority votes, but it certainly does not elect politicians. I dont get to vote for politicians from other states or districts, yet those politicians are taxing me to enrich their own constituents. Now, why does voting create the moral authority for taxation? Telling the victims of theft they can leave if they dont like it doesn't address the issue.

 

[Berzerker]

Your stuff? Seems like the stuff was made by the society you're consciously choosing to steal from. They're just reclaiming what you've wrongfully taken.

Your stuff is what you bought with your labor, it doesn't belong to me or "society"

Since we're discussing this in the context of the US, you don't go to jail for not paying taxes. You go to jail for consciously operating yourself in a manner that blatantly avoids paying taxes because you want to evade the system without losing out on the benefits of the system. You're more than welcome to go rough it in some backwater woodland entirely divorced from society. There are people who do that. Go wild.

What happens when they come for your stuff and you dont hand it over? You'll end up in a coffin or a cage. I imagine the people who typically get busted for tax evasion already pay more in taxes than the average Joe, but why does the freedom to leave matter? Can you punch people out after warning them to leave first?

You can't, however, expect to live in the middle of a primary society while being divorced from the social contract unless you have a secondary society to back you up as the Amish/Mennonites do. Even these are held to some expectation and cannot act as they please. You are a victim to the world you are born in and taking issue that you were born into society seems fairly infantile and on par with complaining that you weren't born as a sports car.

The only contract the USA has is the Constitution and 'we the people' didn't sign it. Nevertheless, that contract limits what Congress can do with taxes. If I'm a billionaire real estate mogul and I pay politicians to tax you to enrich me further, is that theft? What if I want your land for my business so my politicians tax (or regulate) you beyond the ability to pay?

 

[Synobun]

Sounds like emigration is the ideal choice for you. That way, you're only a part of a nation that "you the individual" have signed on with.

 

[Berzerker]

every nation taxes people beyond the moral authority to tax

 

[Synobun]

You're out of luck, then. Like I said earlier, resistance to the concept of society is on par with complaining that you weren't born as a sports car. There's really no point and what you want can't happen anyways.