Teachers are not people

[Archbob]

Unions fund candidates who support their interests? Of course they do. Voters vote for candidates who support their interests. It's how the system works.

Not everybody in a union supports the candidate that gets the money? Let them vote on it. If the losers don't like it, then they obviously have some sort of problem with this whole "democracy" business in the first place.

Unions act as interest lobbies? That's the whole point of unions: to represent workers to the employers and government.

They you don't have any arguments for not allowing super PACS to donate to whoever they want to as well or corporate committees. Unions are no different from those ridiculous super PAC that ultra rich businessmen form.

 

[downtown]

They're wage-labourers. Therefore, working class.

Then so is nearly everybody. Our teachers are highly educated and posses some degree of individual bargaining power, unlike say, a machinist, or perhaps even a fireman. The reasons they have unions and are typically looked down on a little compared to other white collar cube people is for gender reasons.

 

[Traitorfish]

They you don't have any arguments for not allowing super PACS to donate to whoever they want to as well or corporate committees. Unions are no different from those ridiculous super PAC that ultra rich businessmen form.

Sure I have an argument: I don't want them to, and I'm not chained down by any of the naive individualisms that lead to this false equivalent between industrial magnates and blue collar schmucks. Thought you'd've been all about the realpolitik.

Then so is nearly everybody.

Yup.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

how come you couldn't reuse them?
Were you just starting and didn't have any to reuse?
That's part of my wifes problem

What subjects does she teach? Which grade(s)?

Also, American Teachers are not working class.

What are they, then?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

What subjects does she teach? Which grade(s)?


What are they, then?

She is a headstart teacher. She teaches pre-k to poor kids. The families are the worst of the worst. Kids come in with black eyes and burns often. She loves the work, hates the crappy paycheck and the smell of meth on the kids.

 

[downtown]

What are they, then?

They would be white-collar professionals, like an accountant or salesperson. I think the idea of lumping everybody who earns a wage together is silly...a factory worker and and an architect don't have much in common in the way of economic interests.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

She is a headstart teacher. She teaches pre-k to poor kids. The families are the worst of the worst. Kids come in with black eyes and burns often. She loves the work, hates the crappy paycheck and the smell of meth on the kids.

Considering all the ways social services can screw up with taking kids away from parents who are NOT abusing them, this is disgusting. No kid should be subjected to this kind of life.

What kinds of supplies, etc. does your wife need? Is there a Freecycle group in your city?

 

[Traitorfish]

They would be white-collar professionals, like an accountant or salesperson. I think the idea of lumping everybody who earns a wage together is silly...a factory worker and and an architect don't have much in common in the way of economic interests.

They have more in common with each other than either do with their bosses.

 

[kramerfan86]

I highly doubt that, an architect is going to have a lot more in common with at least the first couple levels of management than he does someone in a completely different field. Maybe by the time you get to the very upper levels he finally would have more in common with a factory worker, but only then.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Considering all the ways social services can screw up with taking kids away from parents who are NOT abusing them, this is disgusting. No kid should be subjected to this kind of life.

What kinds of supplies, etc. does your wife need? Is there a Freecycle group in your city?

The system works ok, it has to raise to the level of black eyes before they take action. They don't yank kids from parents lightly.


She needs all kinds of stuff, sometimes she gets reimbursed, often not. We are in too small a city for Freecycle.

 

[aelf]

Pray tell, how many hours a day do you work?

He probably doesn't. He's probably just a kid who doesn't even come into regular contact with teachers because he's homeschooled. Fits the pattern.

 

[Traitorfish]

I highly doubt that, an architect is going to have a lot more in common with at least the first couple levels of management than he does someone in a completely different field.

Don't see why. Architect wants shorter hours, higher pay, more freedom. Machinist wants shorter hours, higher pay, more freedom. Might articulate their interests differently, and pursue them through different means, but at bottom they're pretty much the same, and they both find the same opposition in a management who want them to work longer hours, for lower pay, with less freedom.

 

[kramerfan86]

Don't see why. Architect wants shorter hours, higher pay, more freedom. Machinist wants shorter hours, higher pay, more freedom. Might articulate their interests differently, and pursue them through different means, but at bottom they're pretty much the same, and they both find the same opposition in a management who want them to work longer hours, for lower pay, with less freedom.

And you dont think middle management wants to work shorter hours? Everyone but the very top has someone barking at them demanding more for less. The architect/salesperson's middle management likely did a similar job to them at some point, as such they have that connection in addition to the overlords making demands of them. If you want to argue an architect has more in common with a factory worker than the head of the company, sure, but lets not act like his direct boss is too different to him at the end of the day.

 

[downtown]

Don't see why. Architect wants shorter hours, higher pay, more freedom. Machinist wants shorter hours, higher pay, more freedom. Might articulate their interests differently, and pursue them through different means, but at bottom they're pretty much the same, and they both find the same opposition in a management who want them to work longer hours, for lower pay, with less freedom.

Thats what everybody wants, even the guy who owns the business...they want more freedom and money for themselves. You don't have to own capital to not want those things for people below you though. Hell, I'd love if my intern worked longer hours.

The Architect, or the middle manager, or most white collar professionals, can individually bargain with management to obtain those things. He has leverage, and the relationship between highly skilled (or scarce) labor is not completely unequal.

The laborer or the factory worker cannot. Unless he bands together with other laborers in his field, he has no means of obtaining any of those goals. That is not an inconsequential difference.

 

[Traitorfish]

And you dont think middle management wants to work shorter hours? Everyone but the very top has someone barking at them demanding more for less. The architect/salesperson's middle management likely did a similar job to them at some point, as such they have that connection in addition to the overlords making demands of them. If you want to argue an architect has more in common with a factory worker than the head of the company, sure, but lets not act like his direct boss is too different to him at the end of the day.

It's not just about interests in abstract, though, it's interests in (and as) practice, and in practice even inferior levels of management exist in an antagonistic relationship to their workers, at least insofar as they are managers and not simply clerks. Regardless of what they want for themselves, they pursue capital's demands for more work, less pay and less freedom for the workers under them, and that puts at odds with those workers in which the whitest of collars will, at least in itself, not.

Thats what everybody wants, even the guy who owns the business...they want more freedom and money for themselves. You don't have to own capital to not want those things for people below you though. Hell, I'd love if my intern worked longer hours.

The Architect, or the middle manager, or most white collar professionals, can individually bargain with management to obtain those things. He has leverage, and the relationship between highly skilled (or scarce) labor is not completely unequal.

The laborer or the factory worker cannot. Unless he bands together with other laborers in his field, he has no means of obtaining any of those goals. That is not an inconsequential difference.

What about that implies a fundamental difference in their relationship to their employer, i.e. a difference of class? It's not inconsequential, but, by the same token, neither is the difference between skilled workers and unskilled workers, white workers and black workers, male workers and female workers. The working class is socially heterogeneous, as it always has been.

 

[kramerfan86]

Many workers can tell the difference between the boss being a jerk and him just relaying along upper echelon demands. As such that isnt going to be a huge barrier to commonality. In many cases bosses are former coworkers who you are at the very least friendly with in these sort of specialized white collar businesses. The bonds of similar backgrounds and expertise are much stronger than you are crediting for. Fields, especially as they become more specialized, are going to have tighter bonds.

 

[Traitorfish]

Many workers can tell the difference between the boss being a jerk and him just relaying along upper echelon demands. As such that isnt going to be a huge barrier to commonality. In many cases bosses are former coworkers who you are at the very least friendly with in these sort of specialized white collar businesses. The bonds of similar backgrounds and expertise are much stronger than you are crediting for. Fields, especially as they become more specialized, are going to have tighter bonds.

It's not about how chummy a workplace is, it's about power. Whether you think that your boss is a sadistic jerk or a nice guy in an awkward spot doesn't change the power he has over you, doesn't change the power that the structure has over you, doesn't change the fact that he holds that power as an agent of this far more alien structure.

 

[kramerfan86]

You might look at it in such class-power obsessive ways, but at the end of the day your average person isnt going to feel as connected to low rung people in other fields. It is the same thing you see in terms of low class citizens of one country still feeling closer to their fellow countrymen than fellow low class people in other countries. The point here isnt that I dont get your reasoning, Im just saying for the average person it ranks well behind the other connections people feel.

 

[FriendlyFire]

They you don't have any arguments for not allowing super PACS to donate to whoever they want to as well or corporate committees. Unions are no different from those ridiculous super PAC that ultra rich businessmen form.

SuperPacs are Unions now ?
Lobbyist are also Unions ?
Corporations are people ?

 

[Traitorfish]

You might look at it in such class-power obsessive ways, but at the end of the day your average person isnt going to feel as connected to low rung people in other fields. It is the same thing you see in terms of low class citizens of one country still feeling closer to their fellow countrymen than fellow low class people in other countries. The point here isnt that I dont get your reasoning, Im just saying for the average person it ranks well behind the other connections people feel.

Who said anything about "feeling"? I'm talking about what's real, not what they happen to think is real, as if anything so mercurial was a sensible place to start your analysis. People will believe any old crap until experience teaches them otherwise.