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Teaching game 2 noobs and a teacher vs. Monarch

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Succession Games' started by Shusaku, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. Liquidated

    Liquidated Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!

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    Since no one else of 'mentor' level has commented recently, please allow a Liq to babble on a wall of text perhaps.

    Basically, the way you judge a city 'dot' is by counting food surplus before all other concerns. Without extra food, a town is dead in the water until irrigation, biology and/or broken corporations. All one needs to look at is Poor Damascus from Boff-03 to understand how the irrigation to biology cycle works. That town didn't need Sid's to become The Entertainment Capital of the Ice Age :rolleyes:

    There's always other factors like fresh water, coastal access (and 'one tile off'), forests to chop and hills to mine, but before you really care about all that, check the food first! So with pork in mind when looking at a map for placing 'dots', take the total food a tile produces with basic improvements and subtract two. That's the total food you gain or lose from working that tile. Count the the big +food tiles first as total food you produce isn't nearly as important as how much surplus food you can (ab)use with the smallest number of tiles used up making said food. Think corn, pigs and coastal fishies, things you see nothing of in this start.

    To make maters worse, the Capital is far more important than merely being a 'dot,' special considerations must be made. The initial town really needs to look at the core 7ish tiles it can work before any additional tiles, as the start of the game is where happys are hardest to come by. Keep in mind that the capital needs to be everything at the start; hammers to build, coins to pay rent and food/commerce for research. Later on it can specialize, but for the first 100ish turns, the capital needs to remain flexible. One should mentally form 'tile sets' the Capital can work in order to play the various roles you will have it perform. Sometimes you need hammers (and not growing!) and sometimes you need to grow (back!). Start with 3 tiles allotted for food and 4 tiles for what you 'need' at the moment. The eternal struggle between working food neutral grassland cottages vs. -2 food plains hill mines, that is what the Capital Game is all about... preferably with much rivers all around!

    So this game.....

    Keep in mind the fogged tile in the east is really at best +1 from un-irrigated wheat that's farmed. The other three from north to south are plains, plains, grass, all flat land I think from fog gazing (hence the -1 -1 +0). The others are easily seen by 'zooming in real close' and understanding how maps work:p

    Spoiler :
    By the time Liq figured out he should cut and paste a few tiles to make the fogged tiles a bit more understandable, he'd already 'merged to visible layer' half the food counts... Hell if Liq was doing all that crap again!


    The SIP


    +4 food working the cows, floods, and wheat. The saving grace is that it's mostly grass with definitely hidden resources around... prolly ponys at least, since the game likes to consider those food.

    Grass is good because, so long as you have a food surplus and the caps to allow working more tiles, you can keep growing into grassland cottages. Problem is, with only +4 food surplus that's not nearly enough to work the hills in the area, meaning the fp is going to have to be farmed for +2 to bring surplus after 3 tiles at +5 food. After civil irrigates the wheat (maybe need sacrifice the lakeside forest in the east), we are going to assume is there, Surplus will be +6 and pretty respectable.

    Not a horrible town but overall, but this isn't just any town, it's the Mommy and the Daddy. A very uninspiring Capital to start the game with to say the least.

    Since 2 west is a total pot luck lets ignore that for now and why do the vets like 2 south (losing a turn more than 1 south west?)

    SW


    Already things are looking better food wise, with more riverside but less hammers. Being on the river is far better than the lake + one tile from a river BS they never fixed.

    Right off the bat, screw the wheat tile until at least civil, that gives +5 food working the cows, and 3x floods. The floods add +1 un-health to the location, but fresh water helps it by +2. 7 total riverside tiles is an improvement over SIP's 5 as well.

    +5 isn't being completely fair as one of those fps could easily be farmed for +5 food in 3 tiles, +6 in 4 tiles but that leads us to the real issue with this placement, hammers. The bfc only has a 2 hills; one grass, one plains (prolly iron) and that's That's not nearly enough for pushing out settlers to be honest. That's a mere 10 or 11ish hammers after 2x mines and pasture. If the place had insane food (pigs corn fishes), the whip could replace the lack of native hammers but this location doesn't benefit from concentrated food tiles either. There's only so many forests to chop for one-time burst hammers and mills are about 5k years away. Working unimproved forests is not a game the capital wants to play like ever.

    So what 7 tiles to work. Always worth running the cow +3 floods hands down. Finding three riverside grasslands for cottages requires one to chop that forest to the south as you never want to be working the first cottages off river if you can help it.

    Hammer/no growth mode would be... hmm. cow +3 fps = 5 food but there's two hills for -3 food and nothing else really able to eat the +2 food remaining.+2 food isn't enough to be bouncing back from a fresh whipping to pop 7 but there's nothing else compelling to work as the land is too green and flat hehe. Ok, so assuming there's a library up, run a scientist spec!

    Growth mode: cow 3xFP 3xRvG +5food
    No growth mode: cow 3xFP 1xPH* 1xGH** + SciS

    *Can drop the plain hills to add a second scientist spec
    ** if one FloodPlain is farmed, can drop the Grass Hill to add a second scientist spec.


    Beeline writing :p

    So 2x south


    5x flood plains and those tired old grassland cows for +7 food over 6 tiles. +7 food from 6 tiles isn't exactly whip friendly (you want high yield food tiles for slavery) but 3x hills (2 x plains, 1 x grass) are the capital plot above standard for hammers, and that plains forest will prolly never be worth chopping.

    For the 7 tiles...
    Like sw purple, gonna need 4 tiles for food... cow for +2 tack on 3 Flood Plain cottages for +5. 2x Plains hills are -4 and -1 for the grass hill, making the easy +0 food and 14-15ish hammers. For growth mode cow + 5 floods + riverside grass, all cottages.

    Growth mode: cow 5xFP 1xRvG = +7 food
    No Growth mode: cow 3xFP 2xPH 1xGH

    Can swap in scientists for plains hills easily here.

    The 2x wasted tiles in the south are not a big issue as by the time the town gets big enough to work all its tiles, another spec or 5 is hardly bad news. Oh and complaining about having to run more specs as a phil leader is asking to get kicked :p. There are only 1-2 plains scarring the BFC; one being that forest and the other being the bonus ? riverside tile in the SW that's prolly plains as well :lol:. The other 7 tiles are grass, 4 of 7 being riverside. Speaking of which, this location also picks up 4 more riverside tiles for a total of 11 workable river tiles vs 7 in sw purple and a mere 5 in SIP teal. 12 river tiles (counting the dot) is nice to have come Steam Power.

    Oh about massed flood plains... every 2 is one sick face with the total number rounded down to nearest integer. 5 floods is only 2.5->2 sick vs fresh water's +2 health, meaning five floods is pretty much the ideal number of fp's to have in one town if not expansive.

    If only that bloody sw fog ? was grassland corn, 2xS orange would be a really hoppin site.

    ----------------

    2 west btw after seeing what we see, is pretty much saying "this area sucks, lets gamble!" as there's as much unknown there as known. If not for what the warrior revealed in the south, that gamble would have been a no brain-er.

    Cheers!
    -Liquidated
     
  2. Shusaku

    Shusaku Chieftain

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    I still don't understand... No seriously, thank you very much for all your time, Liq. You'll get a euh... Explainator award for this! I must admit that it really is the best spot. My idea of 1S 1SW is not the worst, but I give up on some good tiles to gamble with some unknown ones. So, 2S really seems better to me.

    If Fellow is okay with that, we will settle 2S. But, Fellow, the important thing about your decision is that you must understand why 2S is better. If you don't understand, don't be shy to ask more explanations.

    Again, awesome work, Liq. You're simply amazing!
     
  3. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

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    2W is a gamble, as I said before. 2S is ok. 1SE keeps the probable wheat, but looks a bit low on hammers. If you're going 2S, go to PH first turn to reveal more of the west.
     
  4. Liquidated

    Liquidated Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!

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    "Go to PH" means move the settler one tile south and one tile south west as the hill top vantage will reveal not only the west but also the mystery plains tile in 2xsorange dot's BFC

    If you want, I can do that and post the pics later.

    Cheers!
    -Liq
     
  5. Dem Taqat

    Dem Taqat Bladespawn

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    Yeah, looking at things overall I agree with Liq, go to the plains hill, and if Nothing amazing pops up move to the orange dot and settle there. If you do see something good either settle an obvious spot or post the new dilema in thread and have us take a look at it.

    DT
    Observing :coffee:
     
  6. Fellow

    Fellow Chieftain

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    Just play for the moment, I will check tonight whether I can come up with a different calculation which might or might not proove my point.
     
  7. Liquidated

    Liquidated Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!

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    Well bonus wine makes 2s even better as it's plains riverside.



    The green squares are flood plains, blue is coast (can see the water lapping the shore)

    West looks nice but bird in hand is worth two in the bush.

    IMO 2s with wine added seals the deal. The river to the west will be a nice second city area looks like.

    As for the coast, no point stressing over crowding out a fish that prolly does not exist.

    Cheers!
    -Liquidated
     
  8. Fellow

    Fellow Chieftain

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    Ok , having wine there really does change the story

    However, not knowing that I would come up with the following.

    If you take hammers into consideration as well, then you with your position would probably work cow and then as soon as you have your second citizen a +1 field bringing you in a certain amount of time to a settler.

    Moving one west I would work cow first as well; then change to a +1 field (settler producing wise) and get the settler out as fast as you do. As I settled a turn earlier mine will be ready a turn earlier as well tough.

    The settler will then be placed to a food rich area and this city can then take up the "capital" role of being the flexible city. (In my current game Barcelona does so, while Madrid stays surounded with forest hills a wonderfull military unit city. )

    Ok , now , somewhere I did a thinking mistake, where?
     

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  9. Liquidated

    Liquidated Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!

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    Your counts make no sense whatsoever btw :), else none of the vets would moan and complain about plains tiles :D



    Notice back down to 5 food surplus, same old garbage the settler took a turn to move out of really.

    When counting food, take the total that tile produces then subtract 2 as the population that works that tile is eating that much. floods are +1 (3 - 2 = 1 food), grass are +/-0 neutral, and plains are an icky -1. Grass hills are -1, plains hills are -2. Grass flatlands are useless if one doesn't have a food surplus to grow into them.

    In General, at lower than emp/immortal levels of play, you are more or less self researching your techs. This means cottages work even for non financial Leaders. As you increase the game's difficulty, the AI begins to out tech you such that beelining tech expressly to trade/broker out becomes your main way of filling in the tech tree. For now though, consider cottages to be worth using on grass tiles... at least in towns you want to work commerce in.

    So other than the massed red food counts, one west of start would still be considered inferior to orange for a single reason.. it's off river.

    Orange dot has 12 tiles worth of hammers from a levi at steam power, the era Ironworks comes into play. We're talking about 12 free hammers on tiles worth working anyway as they are all grass or flood plain. 12 hammers of which is like working 3 hill mines, sans the population needed to work food negative tiles. Combine that with the fact that the hover dam wonder needs a town on a river to build, and the capital is the best place to push that powerful wonder.

    Never underestimate the power recursive river systems will bring a town. Riverside grass/floods are like a tabula rasa in that they can be commerce, food, hammers or a mix of the three with the proper improvements and civics. Just as the happy caps rise, that's when the lesser used improvements like water mills come into play.

    Keep in mind that orange dot is skimming ugly tiles (note the desert south of the wine and peaks and the dry plains to the east) such that leaving room in the west to expand is better than leaving half a town in the southeast.

    Overall, the only thing orange is really lacking is a solid food tile or two that low population can work. That elasticity comes into play when whipping early on. Whipping isn't something this area supports in general, past initial core builds.

    Cheers!
    -Liquidated
     
  10. Shusaku

    Shusaku Chieftain

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    So, I think we should settle right now at 2S. What do you guys think?
     
  11. Dem Taqat

    Dem Taqat Bladespawn

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    2 south of the start/on the warrior/orange dot/whatever else you want to call it. It's the best spot i can see. Go there and
    DT
    Observing Thoughtfully :coffee:
     
  12. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

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  13. Liquidated

    Liquidated Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!

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    yap all first turn was... move warrior southwest, then move settler south, southwest.

    In terms of scouting, I would normally move the warrior south eastish a bit, but the west looks compelling to say the least. Best to start moving westish to scout the "2w" area.

    Gandhi starts with mining and Myst and you have cows to work. Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry seems like a good idea. A worker straight off will have things to do.

    Cheers!
    -Liq
     
  14. Fellow

    Fellow Chieftain

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    I did count the total amount of production going towards a settler (Hammer + Food - Consumtion (2 food) of this field)

    However, the river and the wine are strong arguments ;)

    Let's get this moving.... I am interesing what else comes out of it..
     
  15. RFHolloway

    RFHolloway Analyst in the UK

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    worker straight off? - I would normally let the city grow first (build warrior). Is this because the first tile is so much better than any others it is more important to improve the first tile than work the second?
     
  16. babybluepants

    babybluepants Deity GOTM Staff

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    Yes. I'm too lazy to write up numbers, so the best thing to do is start a game and try playing both to say 2000 BC, improving the best food tiles first. You'll immediately see the difference. The basic principle is that the best unimproved tile is only worth 3 (combination of food and hammers). A citizen costs you 2f, so the increase in production from growing onto an unimproved tile is only 1, and you've invested 20+ food to get there. It's not a very good investment. This applies equally at any point in the game - if you're growing onto unimproved tiles you either need to build more workers or whip the population away.
     
  17. Brian Shanahan

    Brian Shanahan Permanoob

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    In BtS worker off the bat is probably best play in 90% of starts. It does slow growth vor 23 turns at Prince, Epic (the SP settings I usually play, must move up). But the big trade off is that you have improvements a lot quicker too, allowing you to stand up a defensive force quicker (Ai won't attack to c. T80 and Barbs are a while away too) and also to get claiming land and upping your science production too.

    The main reasoning behind worker first is that you want to be working improved tiles as much as possible, and even if you are on a no worker tech start you can usually pop out a useful worker tech before the worker himself.
     
  18. Liquidated

    Liquidated Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!

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    You do not compute hammers into a food plot:D. If you don;t have the food to work the hammers, those tiles aren't going to do you any good until corporations.

    Give you an example... go into the world builder and make a city that's entirely plains hills. You can even place metal and stone resources on them all (no pigs or sheep!). Try working a single tile. Now, turn as many of those tiles into flatland plains, Slow growth ensues. Now try it with one of those flat land tiles grassland and then after you whack a few of those turns add an improved cow onto it. Just that one cow lets you grow to a least 3 of those plains hills. As you add more food, those hills become much more useful.

    There's an article on the CFC somewhere that of the three resources, the relative value goes something like 10 6 4 ish (cannot for the life of me find the numbers) as each food is worth 10, each hammer is worth 6 and each commerce is worth 4ish points. Not sure the exact numbers but food is by far the most valuable resource a town can have access to.

    Worker first can start mining the plains hills right off the bat as one researches to animal husbandry and the cows second. You really never want to work unimproved tiles, but you can do worse than flood plains. If really pressed for things to do, it's safe to farm one of the floods though it takes so very long to do anything on desert tiles :(.

    Cheers!
    -Liq
     
  19. Dem Taqat

    Dem Taqat Bladespawn

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    @liq- If i remember correctly 2 :food: = 3 :hammers: = 5 :commerce:, but anything putting food/ hammers/commerce is a good guideline. I also agree hammers should be ignored when calculating a cities growth potential. ;)

    DT
    Dispensing Wisdom :old:
     
  20. Liquidated

    Liquidated Goofed Up on Cough Syrup!

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    Yeah was looking for the post. Cannot find it!

    We kill this SG btw? lol

    Cheers!
    -Liq'd
     

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