Team Governance

The poll could simply be "Do you like GW's plan, or DMW's plan, or niether?"

If half the votes are for niether, then we start over. But if less than half is for niether, then we go with the plan that has the majority of the remainder, as those two plans are incredibly similar.

To be honest, I'm not even sure how they are different. But maybe I need to reread them more carefully :)
 
I've actually been working on writing a draft constitution to submit here for debate and modification.
(Hope to be done this week)

But since this discussion is progressing, I'll submit the outline I'm using now for consideration.

Remember – under my proposed constitution, all the departments are just placeholders for the responsibilities of each elected officer. The elected official will perform the duties of each department, unless they'd like to appoint someone to manage the department for them.

On the Budget:
I like the idea of having a budget, and have, in-fact, created a "department of the budget" under the President in my proposal. In the early game, this office won't really have anything to do – unless they want to divide up our stockpile among various departments. But I don't think the constitution needs to specify when or how the budget is handled. Suffice to say, the Budget Department can make it as simple or complicated as they want as the game goes along.

On Designated Player Pool:
I've covered this in the "Chain of Command" section of my proposed constitution. Rather than a separate chain of people, the CoC will flow through the elected ministers. Seems like the most fair way to ensure the will of the people is carried out.

On Elections:
I'm going to propose elections every 20 turns. I think we could certainly go longer between elections, but it will give us something to do in the beginning when things are slow!

And without further ado, here's the outline of my work-in-progress proposal:
(I inserted some comments where I think some department functions may not be clear)

The Constitution.
Spoiler Outline :
Article Index:
I – Authority & Team Name
1) The Constitution
2) Team Name​

II – Government Structure & Elections
1) Citizens
2) Leadership
3) Leadership Authority and Chain of Command
4) Election Rules
5) Impeachment and Recalls
6) Special Referendums​

III – Government Offices & Departments

1) The Office of the President
A) The President
B) Department of Civics
C) Department Council on Religion
D) Department of Imperial Expansion (Where to build new cities)
E) Department of the Budget (How to spend gold stockpile)

2) The Office of Domestic Policy
A) The Chief Domestic Officer
B) Department of Industry
C) Department of the Interior
D) Department of Great People
E) Department of Economy (Tax, Science, and Culture)

3) The Office of Imperial Defense
A) The Secretary General of Defense
B) Department of the Army
C) Department of the Navy
D) Department of the War Academy​

4) The Office of the Foreign Ministry
A) Chief Foreign Minister
B) Department of State
C) Department of Trade
D) Department of Intelligence and Analysis (Comparative F11 Stats and spying)

5) The Office of the Humanities
A) The Provost
B) Department of Nomenclature
C) Department of History
D) Department of News (Internal and External)
E) Department of Elections & Oversight​

6) The Office of UN Relations
A) Ambassador to the UN​

IV. Everything Else
1) Amending the Constitution
2) ?​
 
@DaveMcW: I'm sorry! I meant to address all of your proposals more specifically – I just forgot in the midst of posting the above.

DaveMcW's proposal for reference:
Spoiler :
Office of the President (plays the game, resolves disputes between the 3 ministries, fills in any orders that the ministries missed)
Designated Player Pool (keeps the game moving if the President is absent)

Office of the Domestic Ministry
Civics Department (responsible for choosing empire civics)
Department of Industry (chooses what to build in each city)
Department of the Interior (moves workers, and chooses tile improvements)
Department of Culture (decides wonder and great people priorities)
Department of Science (sets science slider, chooses research)
Counsel on Religion (responsible for choosing state religion, if any. Manages all missionary units)

Office of the Defense Ministry
Department of the Army (responsible for all Land and Air units after they are built)
Department of the Navy (responsible for all naval units after they are built)
War Academy (chooses all unit upgrades when units are promoted)

Office of the Foreign Ministry
Department of State (manages diplomacy. War, peace, and all treaties)
Department of Trade (responsible for resource, gold, and technology trading)
Department of Propaganda (writes news releases for the other teams to read)

Office of Records
Department of Nomenclature (responsible for naming things)
Department of History (summarizes each turn)

I did address the Designated Player Pool. I think a chain of command through the ministers is an easier and more democratic way of making sure things keep moving.

On Moving Departments:
I'm worried that the Domestic Department is on the verge of controlling everything significant that happens in the game. Which is why I think it's better to leave Civics and Religion in the hands of the President.

Also – I think it would be redundant to split Culture, Science, and Economy into different departments. A decision in one affects both of the others directly. It will be much simpler to have one department that can say "Tax at 40%, Science at 50%, Culture at 10%" rather than trying to make 3 separate departments all agree. Unless you wanted to make the Science and Culture departments responsible for the associated buildings?!? Which would just makes things even more complicated and unwieldy in my view.

Finally – I do like the department of propaganda, but I thought it would fit most logically with the Office of Humanities, as they are already recording history.
I tried to think: "The kind of person who will want to be elected and run this department will naturally have what kind of skills and interests?" and assign departments accordingly… while balancing how much each department has to do. I didn't want any officers with far less to do than their counter-parts.

So again, I apologize if I seemed to ignore you. That was not my intention at all. Hopefully I covered everything this time.

Looking forward to hearing your reaction.
After all, mine is just a proposal based on my personal thinking also!
 
Propaganda is interesting ... I initially felt that it would fit into Foreign ... however if it is similar to the newpaper (humourous) them it would fit better in the Humanities section.

We cannot post UN propaganda until every team has been met ingame.

Regarding the Designated Player Pool, I actually like that ... since there should not be a pre-requisite for a Minister to be able to open and play the save ... I also think that it is upto the president to appoint or list this roster ...

The President can aways add rules to the running of this roster ie. when and how it is activated.
 
Thanks for responding. :)

General_W said:
I did address the Designated Player Pool. I think a chain of command through the ministers is an easier and more democratic way of making sure things keep moving.
I don't care who chooses the pool, as long as we agree there should be a group that can keep things moving.

Would not having Civ4 disqualify you from being a minister? From being president?

General_W said:
On Moving Departments:
I'm worried that the Domestic Department is on the verge of controlling everything significant that happens in the game. Which is why I think it's better to leave Civics and Religion in the hands of the President.

Also – I think it would be redundant to split Culture, Science, and Economy into different departments. A decision in one affects both of the others directly. It will be much simpler to have one department that can say "Tax at 40%, Science at 50%, Culture at 10%" rather than trying to make 3 separate departments all agree. Unless you wanted to make the Science and Culture departments responsible for the associated buildings?!? Which would just makes things even more complicated and unwieldy in my view.
And I am concerned that the president is on the verge of controlling everything. :lol: Or at least becoming a bottleneck.

Would you accept giving Domestic control over religion and civics, and the President control over the sliders and budget?

We could require that Domestic appoint a certain number of department heads and follow their recommendations. Or maybe we should just split up Domestic into Economy and Interior, and vote for 2 positions.

Also, you didn't comment on my proposal that the president should be able to fill in orders in the absence of any minister. Do you agree?

General_W said:
Finally – I do like the department of propaganda, but I thought it would fit most logically with the Office of Humanities, as they are already recording history.
I tried to think: "The kind of person who will want to be elected and run this department will naturally have what kind of skills and interests?" and assign departments accordingly… while balancing how much each department has to do. I didn't want any officers with far less to do than their counter-parts.
Propaganda is meant to be released to other teams, which is why I think it should have Foreign's approval. But we could certainly have an equivalent position for internal publishing under Humanities, maybe even held by the same person!
 
DaveMcW said:
Would not having Civ4 disqualify you from being a minister? From being president?

It would disqualify the President (of course) ... But I think any person can run for any Ministerial position if they have cIV or not ... they will of course have to mention it when nominated.
 
fe3333au said:
It would disqualify the President (of course)...

I think a well-run government could function without the President playing the game. He/she would still need Civ4 experience though, which is much easier to obtain if you have the game. :)
 
DaveMcW said:
Would not having Civ4 disqualify you from being a minister? From being president?

I think in the event of a minister not having Civ4, a designated player should be appointed by said minister to fill in their place in the chain of command.

DaveMcW said:
And I am concerned that the president is on the verge of controlling everything. Or at least becoming a bottleneck.

If the president takes too much control, and refuses to relent, we can simply not re-elect him, or if all else fails, impeach him.

DaveMcW said:
Would you accept giving Domestic control over religion and civics, and the President control over the sliders and budget?

If I'm not mistaken, I think the plan does call for the president controlling the budget.

DaveMcW said:
We could require that Domestic appoint a certain number of department heads and follow their recommendations. Or maybe we should just split up Domestic into Economy and Interior, and vote for 2 positions.

I may be willing to support the idea of splitting Domestic into 2 positions, but what exactly would you have each position do, and how would their power be balanced with the foreign & defense ministers?

DaveMcW said:
Propaganda is meant to be released to other teams, which is why I think it should have Foreign's approval. But we could certainly have an equivalent position for internal publishing under Humanities, maybe even held by the same person!

This idea I like a lot. It makes sense to have a propaganda position in both the foreign and humanities sections. Any discussion with other teams should go through the foreign minister, since that person is supposed to have the "knowledge" on strategic diplomatic issues.

Just my thoughts.
 
Wow – what a lively discussion!

I like this team already :lol:

Let me try to hit everything…

Fe3333au said:
Regarding the Designated Player Pool, I actually like that ... since there should not be a pre-requisite for a Minister to be able to open and play the save ... I also think that it is upto the president to appoint or list this roster ...
If this becomes the team consensus, so be it. But I still vehemently disagree with doing this. It's a whole extra layer of bureaucracy and appointments that aren't necessary. We've got elected ministers that are (hopefully) already up to speed on what's going on in the game and are directly accountable to the people… since they are elected. If the president can't play – then the domestic minister can. If he can't – then the Defense Minister can. If he can't then the Foreign Minister can… then the UN rep. So far in the MTDG, I don't believe we've ever had to even active the CoC, but even if we do – there's plenty of redundancy already. If one of the ministers doesn’t have Civ4 – then it just passes to the next minister. No problem. No extra rules.


DaveMcW said:
Would not having Civ4 disqualify you from being a minister? From being president?
The president's Primary job is to play the save – so I'd say having Civ4 is a requirement to be President. For all the other ministers and departments, it may be preferable, but it is not required. They can go off screenshots and reports.



DaveMcW said:
And I am concerned that the president is on the verge of controlling everything. :lol: Or at least becoming a bottleneck.
Would you accept giving Domestic control over religion and civics, and the President control over the sliders and budget?.
You think the president is going to be a bottle neck? Let's look at each job description in my proposal:

President:
Civics – A rare decision. Only when something needs to be changed. Once every 20 turns max?
Religion – Switching state religions will only occur a few times in an entire game, max. Moving Missionaries around might be a little more work – but it's pretty limited.
Expansion – Choosing where each new city will go is another rare, but important, decision. Even on a large map, we'll probably only get to settle around 10 cities. This decision will involve domestic, defense, and foreign concerns – therefore best in the hands of the president.
Budget: How do we spend our surplus gold (if we even have the tech to spend it). This could be the most active part of the president's job – but it's not exactly a "bottle neck" job.

Bottom line: As I have proposed it, the President will play the save (execute orders of all other ministers), and very occasionally have his(her) own decisions to make.

Domestic Minister:
Dept. of Industry: Decisions will need to be made every turn on what we're building, what citizens are working which tiles, how to balance hammers with food with commerce, how many citizens (if any) should not work tiles to give us Great People points, and all the other myriad decisions a city has to make each turn – the heart of the game.
Dept. of Interior – Every turn workers will need to be moved, decisions will be made on do we want a farm or a cottage? Do we chop this forest now or wait? Do we need to hook up this resource first or build a winery over there first?
Department of Great People: When we have citizens not working, do we want them as Scientist? Engineers? How do we balance what the citizen produces inherently with the kind of Great Person we'd like the best odds of getting.
Department of Economy: Will be responsible to balance tax income with science spending and culture spending. Will choose what to research (And at what pace to do it).

Bottom line: In my proposal, the Domestic minister already controls 80% of the key elements of this game, and will be very actively issuing orders on every turn.

I can see moving control over the "Economy" (sliders for Tax, Science, and Culture) to the President – but I just can't imagine giving Domestic any more responsibilities that he already has! On most turns the president will just follow orders, and every so-often get to make a decision. The Domestic minister will be making great big game changing decisions virtually every turn!



DaveMcW said:
We could require that Domestic appoint a certain number of department heads and follow their recommendations. Or maybe we should just split up Domestic into Economy and Interior, and vote for 2 positions.
I don't think Officers should be required to appoint anyone. That would take away from the simplicity of just having a few elected officials with freedom to do the most efficient and effective thing - as they see fit. I think our constitution should enable people to get things done as much as possible – not restrict them.
In the same veign, I think 2 positions just makes things more complicated than necessary. As much as possible, I think we should try to avoid overlapping responsibilities to keep things clear.

DaveMcW said:
Also, you didn't comment on my proposal that the president should be able to fill in orders in the absence of any minister. Do you agree?
Must have missed that! Sorry. Yeah – I totally agree with this (I believe it's already written in my draft proposal – not that you could know that.) He can fill in - if the Current minister hasn't appointed a temporary replacement. I think the current Defense Minister ought to be able to say "hey – I'm going to be gone for the week, and I want 'X' to fill in for me." However – if they don't leave specific orders, the president can step in.

DaveMcW said:
Propaganda is meant to be released to other teams, which is why I think it should have Foreign's approval. But we could certainly have an equivalent position for internal publishing under Humanities, maybe even held by the same person!
I like this! I'll totally change that in my draft proposal.



Whew!

What do you all think of that!?

(If I can't win on logic – I'll try to win on length! :lol:)
 
For the Record:

My silence in these matters does not indicate a lack of interest. Rather, due to the limitations of my sweet little compy, I don't have cIV, and therefore many of the nuances these plans speak to appear to me quite trivial (though I'm sure they are not at all!)

If forced to vote now, it will be very difficult for me to choose between two plans that, to my ignorant eyes, appear almost the same. Both plans strive toward simplicity, not complexity; both plans offer representation and accountability; both offer flexibility in participation. Essentially, I am not qualified to choose among them.

So if I had to vote now, I would either vote for both, or I would abstain. How odd is that!
 
General_W said:
(If I can't win on logic – I'll try to win on length! )

You always win on length:salute:
 
DaveMcW said:
I think General_W and I will end up agreeing on the same document.
I certainly hope so! (And I'm sure we will)

Do you have any specific comments based on my massive post? Have I swayed you my direction at all?

gbno1fan said:
You always win on length
:lol: I will take this as a compliment!

:old: <-- this is certainly not me rambling on and on.
 
:thumbsup: Gen_W, looking good and looking fine :D

The only thing I like from other team models that I know of, (and which was proposed by DaveMcW) is the Backup Turn Taking Roster ...

I am assuming that each Minister will issue orders for the President (Turn Taker) to follow for each turn ... so going through the mechanics of playing a turn is no big deal.

Therefore if the President is unavailable then i see having a list of eager players ready to fill in to be easily implimented ... as long as the turn reporting is of an equal calibre, then why not.

It is easy to impliment ... Any member wishing to take turns in a emergency please enroll on the list ... you must have the version of cIV on your system blah blah blah ... simple :)


I really think that it should not necessarily be a pre-requisite for the turn taking to go to Ministers, this is a separate element of the game, a list of players who may want nothing else than to play a couple of turns, happy to follow orders and not want the responsibility of holding office ...

:hmm: I can even see that under some Presidentships, on more than one occasion a couple of members are allowed to take turns, just to give people a go.

The person who has taken a turn will then be placed at the bottom of the roster ... all very simple. The list would hold names of everyone who would want the opportunity to just take the odd turn or two.

Just a thought ;) which if adapted into the main document will actually create a more inclusive environment to the game ... especially for those that are more interested in moving pieces about than strategising why they are doing it :p
 
I can support that idea, fe, with one addition. I think either the President or a majority of the ministers should approve the player list.

Reasoning: I simply don't want someone to "accidently" misunderstand the directions given to them and screw the whole team over. We could have all the discussion in the world, but if 1 un-elected person comes in, puts their name on the play list, and screws us on their turn, we have a huge problem.

Playing the turn is a big responsibility even if you're just following orders.
 
gbno1fan said:
I can support that idea, fe, with one addition. I think either the President or a majority of the ministers should approve the player list.

Reasoning: I simply don't want someone to "accidently" misunderstand the directions given to them and screw the whole team over. We could have all the discussion in the world, but if 1 un-elected person comes in, puts their name on the play list, and screws us on their turn, we have a huge problem.

Playing the turn is a big responsibility even if you're just following orders.
I can live with that ... although in practice I doubt that anyone would be removed from the list ... I would keep it totally under the Presiden't discretion as well ... I don't like having a blackballing apron attired rite in the backrooms where ministers privately debate the values of potential turn takers ... :lol: just playing with the masonic theme ;)

But seriously ... everyone who wants a go, should be encouraged. :D
 
fe3333au said:
But seriously ... everyone who wants a go, should be encouraged. :D
That is basically what a SG type format would have allowed. It would have been a lot looser than the two models in play.
 
I was thinking exactly that :agree: as I started to formulate this ...

However the President would be the main turn player and then only if unavailable or at his discretion would the roster be activated ... and the pre-requisite to take a turn would also be the ability to provide accurate reporting with plently of screenies.
 
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