Tech advice

[Dreef]

Ok I came from civ 3 and expected to be good at this game. I dove into the harder difficulties and learned a lot but even so I have only developed one working strategy.

I can warmonger well and that is it. Regardless of my Civ I go for copper and chop my first settler and usually Stonehenge. Depending on location I might chop out the oracle or another settler and shortly after I chop a couple axemen. I research towards catapults and once I have 2-3 axemen/swordsmen and 1-2 cats I start a war and try to cripple at least 1 civ.

I then start researching towards riflemen and try to trade/bully for tech parity. If all goes well by the time my axe/swords attack slows down I am ready to consolidate. I build upwards instead of outwards until I get riflemen/grenadiers. I can upgrade my axe/swords to riflemen cityraider3 and they do a great job if they still have muskets or less.

I am usually the largest civ on the map at this point and I just run diversionary raids until I have tanks. I can fill in a lot of tech at this point but I need to stay focused on getting tanks. I then start the next phase of expansion. Artillery and tanks and, if needed, a navy to transport me to the enemy. I can usually pick and choose my win method at this point on monarch or lower.

My question is what techs do I need to work for if I want to win in more peaceful ways? I have tried monopolizing religions and gunning for all of the free techs and GP but I always seem to fall too far behind around gunpowder.
How important are religions to my long term success?
What techs should I set as my priorities?
What wonders are worth investing in and researching to?
How much should I cave on AI tech demands?
How do you keep long term tech parity without out-expanding the cheating AI?
What Great People should I be producing in my GP city?
Is non-stop war the only answer on the higher difficulties?

 

[cleverhandle]

It would help to say exactly what difficulty level you're asking your questions about. I'll answer supposing Monarch/Emperor.

My question is what techs do I need to work for if I want to win in more peaceful ways?

Either one that fits well with your civ traits and immediate needs, or one that will reliably net you two or more techs in trade. If you don't know what a tech is going to do for you immediately, then you probably shouldn't be researching it.

I have tried monopolizing religions and gunning for all of the free techs and GP but I always seem to fall too far behind around gunpowder.

This is almost always a bad idea. You have more pressing concerns for your beakers - namely your economy, security, and terrain development.

How important are religions to my long term success?

Very, but it's not very important to found one unless you're alone on an island.

What techs should I set as my priorities?

Those that accentuate the strengths of your civ and your map. There's no way to give a more specific answer without seeing a save game.

What wonders are worth investing in and researching to?

Same as for techs.

How much should I cave on AI tech demands?

The higher difficulty you play, the more you cave. You can't afford enemies early on. Of course, if somebody's already on your hit list for the near future you can tell them where to stick their demands.

How do you keep long term tech parity without out-expanding the cheating AI?

You don't. You pick the techs you need and research or trade for those. Then you take somebody's land. If you get large enough to have true tech domination, then you've probably nearly won a domination victory anyway. Forget about the never-ending tech lead that was possible with Civ3's tech for gpt deals.

What Great People should I be producing in my GP city?

Again, you seem to be looking for pat answers. It depends.

Is non-stop war the only answer on the higher difficulties?

Absolutely not. But some war is probably necessary to get yourself more space. You're lucky to get 5 cities at Emperor before all the land is gone. That's not enough for the long haul.

 

[kb2tvl]

I played civ 3 on diety... from time to time but I prefered Monarch which I could enjoy playing more...

So, in that context, I play this game on Noble right now. I play to have fun and to get a feel for what the best approach...

I would consider chop rushing the pyramids. This allows cash rushing instead of pop rushing or chop rushing but that is my take.

For tech, I would think about going straight for alphabet. On Noble level, the AI tends to not research this and you can lever your tech research this way. If you go for alphabet, that delays you to the middle ages. That means forge, catapults, infantry stacks, library and markets. Your market, with a Pyramid and forge become a massive shield producers. This can help ramping up your military.

I like the idea of founding one religion. Adopting one religion is a very good idea. You get culture, shields and happiness. If I were to play a religious civ, I would found hinduism. On lower levels of play, you can found more than one.

Your choice of civ for a peaceful victory is Ghandi. You get fast workers as your UU.

The curious part about civ 4 is the AI's collusion to keep you behind in techs and allow them to progress quickly. It is important to develop all aspects of your economy equally. That is, warfare can be taken too far and peaceful building can be taken too far. There is a balance even if you are going to play a peaceful builder game. One way to do this is to cash upgrade old units while going through a major building cycle. You can choose the religious civic to help in this regard...

On the point of builder/always war approach to this game, I would say that there is a time for both. For example, I try to fight a war in every other age and in the modern age. That means a war in the middle ages and a war in the industrial age with a war in the modern age. The time in between I build structures via cash or population rushing...

I would not cave into AI demands. The AI tends to ask for peace once you are strong enough to wipe them out... If you build structures then units and alternate that with cash upgrades, you should be fine... most of the time. On higher levels, I suspect that you become the gimp that everyone picks on...

One of the reason that I do a peaceful ancient age is to have the infrastructure in place to expand latter on. I expand until I can not expand near by borders. I do not pay attention to the tech slider. City growth will provide more benefit latter on... don't forget to cash upgrade units...

In order to obtain a cultural victory, you need 3 cities with 50k+ culture. In those cities, you want an equal number of great people produced. Your last golden age is based on obtaining one of each great people...

 

[Tholomeo]

Hey Dreef,
how it's possible to win a war with 2-3 axemen/swordsmen and 1-2 cats????
What level is it? Settler? Even on Warlord the AI players have quite a good defense by that time. 2-3 axemen and 1-2 cats wouldn't be enough!

 

[Dreef]

OK, I played a game last night on Monarch difficulty, Terra map as the persians. Creative/expansive are two traits I don't particularly enjoy now, but I digress.

Ok so I was cut severly short on my land grab early. 3 cities before I was boxed in by desert and the AI. No problem I happen to have the romans pinned on a peninsula behind me with no iron or copper Well, looks like my axesman can go to work because I have no chance unless I can get a few more cities.

I steamroll the romans but I didn't try to rush for alphabet this time so I wasn't able to trade tech up to even. I don't want to cripple my economy by over expanding so I don't pick anymore fights yet. I hang tight and try to consolodate, riding out a meaningless war with Alex and finally turn a small army of elephants and cats on the tragically suffering chinese. Wam, bam 3 more cities and one less rival. I try to start building up in peace but not even the "pleased" AIs will trade anywhere near even. I start to fall behind badly in tech on nearly all fronts.

I start to think that maybe I can bully Mansa Musa for an entire tier of tech. Alright lets give it a shot, I beeline for grenadiers and start picking on Mansa. He has the highest score at the moment but Grenadiers > Longbowman and he crumbles as expected. Well, he offers me a world map for peace. Woop-dee-freaking-doo lets keep attacking. Mansa Musa is destroyed because he wouldn't cough up a single tech.

I stop my wars and stagnate for the rest of the game. I don't even have tanks yet and the incas are launching ss components. "I fear you are becoming too advanced" is the note I get on every tech trade available. If I had gone all out war I probably would have crushed everyone or have died in the attempt. Instead I stopped for too long and tried to succeed in building. I can outwar the AI but I can't outbuild them.

I am not looking for a cookbook. I am looking for more building blocks so I can build my empire in a more dynamic and effective way, war war war is not fun. For example the chop rush is a great tool to expand quickly in the early game but you have to sacrifice a bit of development for that early growth. Beeline for Alphabet is a great tool to pick up skipped ancient techs at the expense of no early religion. My early game is solid and well developed. I fall behind in the renaissance usually, so what tips/tricks are there for the middle game?

So far it appears that Great Prophets are only really good for building the religious building. Setting up a GP city that is pumping out prophets seems to be a relative waste. Should I just produce Great scientists and build acadamies everywhere and then just turn them into tech afterwards? Or would it be better to have one super research city that has the acadamy and a ton of Great Scientist specialists?

What about the great merchants and artists? What is the best way to leverage them? Would it be a viable idea to set up a merchant city that is singlehandedly financing my empire?

Having a religious capital is primarily for the gold? I am starting to feel that founding any religion is a waste of time.

Just for clarification

Hey Dreef,
how it's possible to win a war with 2-3 axemen/swordsmen and 1-2 cats????
What level is it? Settler? Even on Warlord the AI players have quite a good defense by that time. 2-3 axemen and 1-2 cats wouldn't be enough!

2-3 axemen and 1-2 cats is the leading force. Once I have my prodcution base established those 5-6 units are constantly being added to. I have to take quick advantage of my unit superiority or else they catch up.

 

[Dreef]

I played civ 3 on diety... from time to time but I prefered Monarch which I could enjoy playing more...

So, in that context, I play this game on Noble right now. I play to have fun and to get a feel for what the best approach...

I would consider chop rushing the pyramids. This allows cash rushing instead of pop rushing or chop rushing but that is my take.

So the pyramids can be argued for cash rushing alone? Is cash rushing a realistic strategy to allow me to build a couple commerce only cities? I wouldn't be shooting myself in the foot siphoning from my research for cash? The pop/cash rushing is an element of the game I don't feel I have fully integrated into my strategies yet. I use them but it isn't with any great foresight.

 

[petey]

So far it appears that Great Prophets are only really good for building the religious building. Setting up a GP city that is pumping out prophets seems to be a relative waste. Should I just produce Great scientists and build acadamies everywhere and then just turn them into tech afterwards? Or would it be better to have one super research city that has the acadamy and a ton of Great Scientist specialists?

Great Prophets also make good super-specialists. They get you +2 production and +5 gold in the city, so they're not a bad thing to have, although after the Shrine, they do get less useful than most of the other GPs. For Scientists, it's better to put them all into the same city and have that city focus on research, so all the bonuses stack up with the increased research that they provide rather than putting Academies around in different cities.

What about the great merchants and artists? What is the best way to leverage them? Would it be a viable idea to set up a merchant city that is singlehandedly financing my empire?

Yes, that's very viable. Use the religious shrine city, since that's pulling in gold anyways. Settle any Prophets you get here for them to add their gold too and focus on building banks, markets grocers, etc and change as many citizens as you can to merchant specialists. If you get a Great Merchant early in the game, you may want to settle him here for the gold and food bonus, but generally, it's better to send him off on a trade mission for the immediate gold bonus.

For Artists, keep them in reserve for when you go to war and then culture bomb a city that you capture in order to secure the area around it from the other civ's influence. Also, you can use them to help create a Golden Age when you're starting a war or building the spaceship.

Having a religious capital is primarily for the gold? I am starting to feel that founding any religion is a waste of time.

It is primarily for the gold. You can get all the other bonuses by taking on one of the AI's religions, but then you're giving your opponent both the gold from all of your cities and a line of sight into them, so they'll know where you're weak. Also, you don't get the line of sight into their cities, which can be extremely helpful during an attack. Personally, I love having a religion and think it's more than worth the effort to get one, but there are many people who find going for them to be too much trouble and not worth the effort.

 

[cleverhandle]

OK, I played a game last night on Monarch difficulty, Terra map as the persians. Creative/expansive are two traits I don't particularly enjoy now, but I digress.

My comments come from playing Continents maps, so take that into consideration.

Ok so I was cut severly short on my land grab early. 3 cities before I was boxed in by desert and the AI.

This may be a Terra thing, but I wonder if you couldn't have squeezed in one more city. Your early cities need not be perfectly placed - consider how low your population will be for the beginning of the game. You may be able to find sites that will not be great by the Industrial Era, but will be perfectly acceptable for the first half of the game.

No problem I happen to have the romans pinned on a peninsula behind me with no iron or copper. Well, looks like my axesman can go to work because I have no chance unless I can get a few more cities.

You have Immortals and you're fighting with Axemen? Immortals are one of the best UU's in the game. I would always start Persia by researching AH and, unless I had some exceptional reason not to, send Immortals to conquer or at least pin down my nearest neighbor. My Immortals would already be at the gates of the enemy capitol by the time I had BW researched and Copper hooked. Play to your strengths.

Mansa Musa is destroyed because he wouldn't cough up a single tech.

It's best to assume that the AI's will never give you techs for peace or tribute. Sometimes (rarely) you get lucky, but don't plan on it.

If I had gone all out war I probably would have crushed everyone or have died in the attempt. Instead I stopped for too long and tried to succeed in building. I can outwar the AI but I can't outbuild them.

I don't think that's accurate. Even as a warmonger, you need some semblance of an economy and tech development. You need periods to build your infrastructure and get workers out improving your land. It sounds more to me like your economy was weak, even apart from the military costs. How were you doing on towns? Did you have coastal cities with harbors and Open Border agreements to rake in trade route commerce? The constant economic pressure is what makes warmongering in Civ4 so very much more difficult than in Civ3. Pillaging and capturing will make you some money, but it's not a complete solution.

Also, you're talking mid to late game by this point, and I'd guess that the Terra map changes some dynamics here.

My early game is solid and well developed. I fall behind in the renaissance usually, so what tips/tricks are there for the middle game?

Commercial development begins early. Towns and trade routes have a big impact by the mid-game.

So far it appears that Great Prophets are only really good for building the religious building. Setting up a GP city that is pumping out prophets seems to be a relative waste.

I agree.

Should I just produce Great scientists and build acadamies everywhere and then just turn them into tech afterwards? Or would it be better to have one super research city that has the acadamy and a ton of Great Scientist specialists?

Look at the numbers. A super-scientist in a city that already has an academy will generate ~14 beakers per turn (assuming Library, Uni, and Observatory). So check out your potential sites for a new Academy. If they have less than 28 raw commerce allocated to science, then the super-specialist is the better choice, at least in the short term. You have to judge your city's likely development - some locations (especially inland ones) are just not going to be great commerce sites no matter how long they develop.

What about the great merchants and artists? What is the best way to leverage them? Would it be a viable idea to set up a merchant city that is singlehandedly financing my empire?

You say you don't want a cookbook, but that really is what you're asking for here. Are you about to go into a war where a round of upgrades can give you a 10-turn headstart? Then a trade mission may be perfect. Do you have a shrine city that will focus on economic buildings? A super-merchant might fit in well there, particularly if the site is a bit short on food. If it's later in the game and you already have most of the cities you expect to have, then using the Merchant for half of a Golden Age may be more helpful. There is no "best way to leverage" a Great Person without considering the context.

Having a religious capital is primarily for the gold? I am starting to feel that founding any religion is a waste of time.

Founding a religion can also have significant diplomatic implications. But the gold is nice, too.

So the pyramids can be argued for cash rushing alone? Is cash rushing a realistic strategy to allow me to build a couple commerce only cities? I wouldn't be shooting myself in the foot siphoning from my research for cash?

I think Representation is a far, far better early use of the Pyramids. Consider the implications of Pyramids->Gr.Engineer->Gr.Library->Nat.Epic under Representation.

The pop/cash rushing is an element of the game I don't feel I have fully integrated into my strategies yet. I use them but it isn't with any great foresight.

Slavery is ridiculously powerful in high-food areas. You can build every "first tier" building on the backs of your slaves with almost no loss in productivity if you MM it correctly.

 

[Dreef]

You have Immortals and you're fighting with Axemen? Immortals are one of the best UU's in the game. I would always start Persia by researching AH and, unless I had some exceptional reason not to, send Immortals to conquer or at least pin down my nearest neighbor. My Immortals would already be at the gates of the enemy capitol by the time I had BW researched and Copper hooked. Play to your strengths.

you need horses for immortals which I didn't have. I had copper and I usually research copperworking very early for the chop benefits.

I don't think that's accurate. Even as a warmonger, you need some semblance of an economy and tech development. You need periods to build your infrastructure and get workers out improving your land. It sounds more to me like your economy was weak, even apart from the military costs. How were you doing on towns? Did you have coastal cities with harbors and Open Border agreements to rake in trade route commerce? The constant economic pressure is what makes warmongering in Civ4 so very much more difficult than in Civ3. Pillaging and capturing will make you some money, but it's not a complete solution.

That is the reason why I can out war the AI. I can build units as well as build my economy at the same time. If I had turned my attention to crippling the incas after mansa musa I would probably have won that game. I wanted to try to outbuild the computer but on monarch I can't peacefully out-tech and out-build the AI. I came here asking advice on primarily mid-game techs and strategies. I know how to win on monarch and below by making war and crippling the AI. I was hoping to save myself hours of trial/error and evaluation learning the correct tech paths for different strategies.

You say you don't want a cookbook, but that really is what you're asking for here. Are you about to go into a war where a round of upgrades can give you a 10-turn headstart? Then a trade mission may be perfect. Do you have a shrine city that will focus on economic buildings? A super-merchant might fit in well there, particularly if the site is a bit short on food. If it's later in the game and you already have most of the cities you expect to have, then using the Merchant for half of a Golden Age may be more helpful. There is no "best way to leverage" a Great Person without considering the context.

Provide the context then for specific situations. For example, probably the best way to leverage a great artist if you want a cultural win is to create a super specialist. All the %multipliers really give you a ton of culture/turn over the 4k blast. For the rest of us a great artist is probably best used to culture bomb a recently acquired city.

Regarding the merchants and scientists, so a super scientist returns 6 beakers a turn. Double that for 12 beakers fully developed compared to ~1200 beakers dumped into a random tech. That appears to be over a 100 turn investment before having that super specialist begins to pay off. It appears to me that 100 turns waiting for that investment to mature is a pretty silly move. Am I missing some key piece of the puzzle? Is the super scientist above and beyond a better choice under some specific conditions paralel to the culture win?