Tech Balance 1.18

[Leoreth]

I think it makes sense to start a thread to coordinate our efforts on balancing the tech rate. People are reporting issues with tech balance from time to time, but I find it hard to draw meaningful conclusions from it that I could act upon. The main reason for this is that the reports all come from wildly different contexts which are often not made explicit in the post.

For that purpose I would like to propose some standardization for tech balance feedback:
- only Standard speed
- only Regent difficulty
- any scenario i.e. 3000 BC, 600 AD, 1700 AD but please mention it

Then I would like to align on a list of target dates to look at:
- 1 AD
- 600 AD
- 1200 AD
- 1500 AD
- 1700 AD

The reason for this is that when a report is made for a random year, it is not easy to answer what the right tech progression would even be at that year. By limiting it to a select few dates, it is easier to build an understanding of what to expect, and also to check the impact of making balancing changes. I picked these somewhat arbitrarily (but deliberately included the scenario start dates) as yardsticks to see where development is still good vs. where it needs adjustments. The exclusion of post 1700 AD years does not mean that I don't think there are issues in the late game or that I won't look at it later, but given how time consuming it is to run late games I would focus on the earlier part of the game first. Only if what comes before is balanced can we look at the later eras.

Ideally I would like reports of games without player interference, i.e. from autoplay. Note that you can always use Ctrl+A to run autoplay until an arbitrary date. If a report comes from an ongoing game please include who you played as and how much tech trading was involved.

Useful information to include for me to gauge the tech spread: always use Ctrl+Z to show everything, show the scoreboard to see what everyone is researching, show the tech tree to show who discovered what first, show the tech graph. If you have identified a particular civilization as being too advanced it might also help to switch to them using Ctrl+C and share their tech tree. Of course, it is always useful to include a savegame in case I need to dig deeper myself.


Please consider following these principles when making reports about tech balance, it would help me a lot to get a coherent sense of what the situation is and to identify problems. You can report things in this thread or in the usual threads you would have posted in otherwise. Thanks!

 

[AOS9001]

I rolled up 5 Prussia starts on the 600 AD scenario. As instructed, they're all normal difficulty, normal speed. The scoreboards and saves are attached if you just want to see those, game-specific observations are in the spoiler tags. The paterns I noticed will follow.

Spoiler Prussia 1 :

Ottomans and Hindu Mughals topping the scoreboard are a common theme. Amsterdam is the protestant holy city in every save, indicating no Catholics researched academia by 1580.
England has a choice of Economics, Scientific Method, Urban Planning, and Horticulture.
Vikings are researching Academia, I had to switch to them to learn this and they instantly collapsed, oof.
Spain hasn't even finished the medieval techs.

Spoiler Prussia 2 :

Spain managed to conquer the Incas and Aztecs, but still couldn't take Cordoba. They can research Academia, Heritage, or Combined Arms.
Hindu Mughals in second place, they have most of the second Renaissance tech row filled out.
France has most of the second row and is getting to work on the third.
Korea is one of the tech leaders along with Mughals and France, no surprise there. A dead China let them grab Liaoyang.
This game has one of the saddest Russias I've ever seen.

Spoiler Prussia 3 :

Ottomans, Hindu Mughals, and France are in the top three for score, which is probably right where they should be in 1700, but there's a few oddities. The Byzantines are alive, Ethiopia conquered the Indie city near Lake Chad, Dutch Bogata...
The Ottoman high score is only from their land, they've only got three techs in the first Renaissance row and are researching combined arms.
The Mughals are in a slightly better tech state, though behind France too.
France has four techs in the second row and is about to get three in the third row.
The rest of the world seems to be working on the first or second row of techs, or further behind for the unfortunates.

Spoiler Prussia 4 :

Ottomans are working on their second row of techs, and have all techs in prior rows.
Spain is working on its second row of techs for the era, but is missing Academia. Aztecs and Incas are alive, so whoever met them first must have run into those war galleys the both love building in recent git updates.
France is working on the third row but is missing the "peaceful" techs from the second row and doesn't even have Heritage.
The Dutch are a bit ahead of them and might even be tech leader.

Spoiler Prussia 5 :

Buddhist(!) Mughals in the lead by score, but have neglected military tech for the 'peaceful' tech the Europeans are mostly ignoring. They're in the second row of techs but have backtracked to firearms now that the French conquerors have arrived. When I switched to them I was barraged with the AI cancelled trades and open borders, lol.
France rushed Replaceable Parts as usual, at the cost of just about everything else. Optics, Academia, and Heritage are their options.
The Dutch aren't far behind France in tech, they've got the majority of the second row and are working on the third row.
The Ottomans have city ruins instead of Constantinople, denying them an excellent city. This may be why they're researching finance in 1700. Despite their population and wealth, they're getting woefully behind on tech. Kinda realistic, actually.
The Moors, like the Mughals, are neglecting military techs for peaceful techs. They're teching towards geology but don't have firearms. They're definitely a tech contender.
Portugal is also a contender, and has vassalized Spain. I scream.

The general patterns I noticed:

• France and the Netherlands are the typical European tech leaders, being a row or two ahead of the rest
• Portugal, Italy, England, Poland, and the HRE are a bit behind the curve but not painfully so, Spain is either a global power (2/5 games) or laughing stock (3/5 games), there's no in-between (look how they massacred my boy)
• Amsterdam was the Protestant holy city in every single game, because...
• Europeans in general ignore the "peaceful" techs like Academia and Heritage until they're forced to research them, the Islamic and Asian civilizations are the opposite, which I suppose makes sense for gameplay
• Ottomans and Mughals are generally beasts by score, military size, population, and wealth, but are starting to fall behind in techs by 1700, I think they're in a good place
• Moors are crazy strong in all regards if they keep Cordoba, which they often do, typically being in the "second rank" of techers like Portugal and Italy
• Japan is just starting to catch up to the Euros in 1700, maybe a little too soon, because in my later-era games they're often snatching secular wonders by the 1700s and 1800s, being a row or two of techs ahead
• Russia has a tendency towards being backwards (even for Russia) in 1700
• Not a tech but the Mughals resistance towards being Muslim is notable.

That's what I've got for now.

 

[triplebassist]

I'm just leaving a 1200 AD savegame here since the biggest culprit for way ahead tech, China, collapsed in 1170. I only decided to make a report once I realized they'd gotten Mesoamerican conquerors on the Toltecs. This is a 3000 BC start with me as Japan. Tech trading was minimal--once with Korea and once with Dravidia, certainly never with China. There's also a screenshot of the tech tree showing first discovery.

I'll run some proper autoplay test games later with some additional screenshots, but I wanted to share this because of how crazy it was.

Relatedly, is there a way to either truncate the scoreboard or show the research info without having the scoreboard take over the whole screen? When I had everything visible, I couldn't see the info for most of the more advanced civs, which I would assume is some of the more useful information right now.

 

[Leoreth]

That's very useful, thanks!

I wonder what is up with the Mughal reluctance to be Muslim, but perhaps they only start with too few missionaries. There do not seem to be too many civs woefully ahead at that point, with the exception of the Moors and possibly Japan. I think for the Moors it is worth exploring to let their UP expire. The other front to nerf them is of course to help Spain militarily.

This looks more like currently Europe is doing a little too poorly, or their research is misdirected. I wonder if this is related to the reports of frequent European wars?

 

[AOS9001]

The Ottomans and Mughals both fight a lot of wars too, so I'm not sure it's wars in Europe that cause this focus on the top three rows of the tech tree. They just... don't like them. The (European) AI is constantly rushing Firearms, Replaceable Parts, and Ballistics in my games, at the expense of everything else. I often see riflemen in the late 1700s on both 600 AD and 1700 AD starts. This would work out for the player if they chose to go for the peaceful techs, but I can count on one hand the times I've gotten a weapon tech in trade from the AI.

Regarding the Moors, once they lose Cordoba they're not so turbocharged. Perhaps if Spain takes Cordoba they lose their Iberian core tiles (allow Spain's culture to actually beat Marrakesh's). And to help Spain take Cordoba... I don't know. More production? More food? More conquerors? The problem with the last is that you can't make the AI attack if it doesn't want to. I've seen them take their conquerors back to Madrid and turtle when the Moors have two crossbowmen and two archers in Cordoba. This is getting outside the scope of this thread, though.
If AI Spain can take Cordoba, If AI Spain can culturally control all of Andalusia, my test runs indicate they can do fine in technology, no worse than AI Italy or AI Portugal. If.

 

[triplebassist]

I wonder what is up with the Mughal reluctance to be Muslim, but perhaps they only start with too few missionaries.

Not to derail the thread too much, but my guess would be that because cities in their Core and initial Indian conquest areas only get Islam via missionaries, it's too easy for them to be in a position where they have only three of seven cities having Islam while Buddhism and Hinduism are present in six and have their shrines under Mughal control (which IIRC tends to make the AI more willing to convert). It might help to see if Islam can spread to Sindh and the Punjab before the Mughal spawn so their missionaries are used on cities they conquer instead of the cities they flip.

 

[AOS9001]

Had some time to run two Arabia 3000 BC starts, I got an unexpected result. I thought China would be the tech leader in both games... but instead it was the Kushans who were racing ahead. Who would have thought?

Spoiler Arabia 1 :

Theology in 450 AD! They stole my religion!

Spoiler Arabia 2 :

China was number one in score by the time I spawned, but once again Kushans were rushing into the middle ages before they died.

I don't know if these were flukes or not.

 

[Temüjin VIII]

That's very useful, thanks!

I wonder what is up with the Mughal reluctance to be Muslim, but perhaps they only start with too few missionaries. There do not seem to be too many civs woefully ahead at that point, with the exception of the Moors and possibly Japan. I think for the Moors it is worth exploring to let their UP expire. The other front to nerf them is of course to help Spain militarily.

This looks more like currently Europe is doing a little too poorly, or their research is misdirected. I wonder if this is related to the reports of frequent European wars?

I had long tried giving Mughals six missionaries, but they always convert after their spawn and not use the missionaries at all. Maybe it's because they can easily take the Hindu holy city?

 

[banzay13]

Even if with WB spread islam to all mughal cites (usually they control 4-5-6 cites after several turn from spawn) - they convert to Hinduism/Buddhism
Ottomans often go Orthodox, but trick with missionary work with them. They stay Muslim

 

[Leoreth]

Had some time to run two Arabia 3000 BC starts, I got an unexpected result. I thought China would be the tech leader in both games... but instead it was the Kushans who were racing ahead. Who would have thought?

Spoiler Arabia 1 :

View attachment 709156
View attachment 709157
Theology in 450 AD! They stole my religion!

Spoiler Arabia 2 :

View attachment 709158
View attachment 709159
China was number one in score by the time I spawned, but once again Kushans were rushing into the middle ages before they died.

I don't know if these were flukes or not.

I also had the Kushans on my list, good to know that this seems to be a consistent pattern.

 

[Apple111111]

That's very useful, thanks!

I wonder what is up with the Mughal reluctance to be Muslim, but perhaps they only start with too few missionaries. There do not seem to be too many civs woefully ahead at that point, with the exception of the Moors and possibly Japan. I think for the Moors it is worth exploring to let their UP expire. The other front to nerf them is of course to help Spain militarily.

This looks more like currently Europe is doing a little too poorly, or their research is misdirected. I wonder if this is related to the reports of frequent European wars?

Slightly off topic but you make it so that civs with fanaticism can’t change religion. It’s a simple fox that could prevent us from seeing Hindu Mughals or Orthodox Ottomans again.

 

[AOS9001]

Slightly off topic but you make it so that civs with fanaticism can’t change religion. It’s a simple fox that could prevent us from seeing Hindu Mughals or Orthodox Ottomans again.

Ottomans shouldn’t be running fanaticism though, they need Islam and Orthodoxy for their wonders. When Ottomans do stay Muslim they drive out the Orthodox and Jewish religions so Topkapi palace and the Blue Mosque never get made.
Maybe giving civs a favorite religion like they have favorite civics would help?

 

[freethink]

I had long tried giving Mughals six missionaries, but they always convert after their spawn and not use the missionaries at all. Maybe it's because they can easily take the Hindu holy city?

I mean, one could argue that its not entirely unhistorical especially with Akbar the Great trying to make his own religion and involve Hindus in his government. So it makes sense that this happens some of the time..... Do wonders change AI behavior when it comes to religion?

 

[Temüjin VIII]

Ottomans shouldn’t be running fanaticism though, they need Islam and Orthodoxy for their wonders. When Ottomans do stay Muslim they drive out the Orthodox and Jewish religions so Topkapi palace and the Blue Mosque never get made.
Maybe giving civs a favorite religion like they have favorite civics would help?

Each leader already has their own favorite religion. The favorite civic is per leader also.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

I'd just add that starting as any civ that spawns *after* Prussia (America and onward) seems to disable Polish and Congolese spawns.

 

[Apple111111]

I'd just add that starting as any civ that spawns *after* Prussia (America and onward) seems to disable Polish and Congolese spawns.

There’s a kind of specific reason for this.

If you’re playing a Civ on auto play, and another Civ is due to spawn, if that Civ’s impact is “limited” (Poland and Congo are examples of limited impact civs), then said Civ won’t spawn if your spawn date is 20 turns after their fall date (time when AI gets increased instability)

It’s basically just a feature to save some time loading, as these civs will have little long term impact after their collapse dates.

 

[SultanRedSnake]

There’s a kind of specific reason for this.

If you’re playing a Civ on auto play, and another Civ is due to spawn, if that Civ’s impact is “limited” (Poland and Congo are examples of limited impact civs), then said Civ won’t spawn if your spawn date is 20 turns after their fall date (time when AI gets increased instability)

It’s basically just a feature to save some time loading, as these civs will have little long term impact after their collapse dates.

Cool to know the mechanics behind this. For relevance I'd just clarify that I posted here for the sake of playtesting within the given parameters.

 

[Matara]

Maybe we can add a birth protection rule:
- (Minority) State religion is more likely to spread.
- AI will not change state religion.

 

[Maggy_domain]

Some weeks ago I ran few 3000 BC/normal speed/Canada games. In all of them I had one between Netherlands/Germany/France/Japan building something on the level of a dozen wonders in their capital, including modern and global era ones. However, I'm not sure if this is something that can be partially addressed by lowering their wonders building weight. Are these long-spanning runs valuable for feedback at this stage ? Cause it takes ~1h to run in the background.

 

[AOS9001]

Another 5 game report, this time with Iran's start date of 1500 AD. Starting from the 600 AD scenario, regent difficulty, normal speed. This one confirms the trends I saw in my Prussian start games, as well as another hunch I've developed playing normally in the past few months...
Saved games are attached in case anyone wants to explore these. I highly recommend 3, maybe someone can figure out what happened the Middle East.

Spoiler Iran 1 :

Ottomans in first place, no surprise. They have the option to research Firearms, they're still in the medieval era.
Everyone else is in the medieval era too, or in the classical era for the usual suspects (New World).
France, the usual European tech leader, has just started researching Logistics. They haven't finished the medieval techs yet. I'm actually surprised they researched Printing and Judiciary before Cartography.
Russia, amazingly, is a real tech contender! They're beelining Statecraft, but still need the prerequisite medieval techs.
My beloved Spain is going for Firearms, but doesn't have Paper, Education, or Doctrine. The only third row of medieval techs they have are what they need for Firearms. But look, they took Cordoba!
Holy Rome is also beelining Firearms, they have one more third row of techs than Spain (Printing).
I looked at a few more civs, and... Iran is the only country that's reached the Renaissance as of 1500, even collapsed China didn't make it there. Sweden spawning with Companies in 1240 ensured they had it researched first, as did Mughals with Gunpowder in 1200. No one is reaching these third row medieval techs before countries start spawning with them already researched. I think we're going to see this trend continue in the following games.

Spoiler Iran 2 :

We start with Mughals as score leader, no surprises there. Ottomans, Mughals, and China should all be competing for top of the scoreboard from 1500 to 1700 if DOC is following general real historical trends. In this game, they're going for Heritage, but are still missing Compass and half the other third row medieval techs.
Korea is in second place, because Korea has Logistics in 1500! They were first to research Finance, Printing, and Judiciary too. Korea is a broken tech powerhouse, we knew this already. However, they're the only Civ where they should be in 1500, following historical trends...
Japan's high population boosts its score, but they're just starting on the third row of medieval techs.
France is researching Exploration, but doesn't have Education or Doctrine, or the bottom three peaceful techs of the third row of the medieval techs.
Italy is just a few turns behind France, researching Finance, with one additional third row tech over France.
Holy Rome is a few turns behind Italy, researching Doctrine. They could get Firearms, but no other Renaissance techs.
This time, the only two civs in the Renaissance are Iran and Korea. Everyone else still has several medieval techs to research.

Spoiler Iran 3 :

Something very strange has happened in the Middle East. Anatolia's cities have no religion (besides Trebizond), there's no sign of the Ottomans or the Timurids, there's no Islam in Central Asia or southern Iran, and there's Muslim Mughals! I wish I'd watched this autoplay instead of going off to eat dinner, what the hell happened here?
Mughals are first in score, with a grand total of one (1) tech in the medieval third row... Gunpowder, the one they spawned with three centuries ago.
Korea, as usual, is teching bigly. They have Heritage, and three other third row medieval techs.
Holy Rome, big guy of Europe this time, only has two third row techs, and they're still missing Doctrine and Patronage.
France has been brutalized by Vikings, they still occupy Paris. They've got Gunpowder as their only third row tech. I think this is an outlier because of Viking shenanigans.
Spain did not conquer Cordoba, sad.
Hey look, there's a China! They're also missing Education and Patronage, with Gunpowder as their only third row tech. Tibet occupies a large portion of western China proper.
Byzantines were the first to discover Commune, Doctrine, Humanities, Printing, and Judiciary before they died.
The Mongols researched Logistics before they died, hitting the Renaissance in 1450.
Once again, Iran and Korea are the only Renaissance civs. Mongolia made it there too before imploding. Everyone else is still working on their medieval techs.
I might come back to this save and play it, might be fun for a curbstomp Iran UHV win. Xerxes will smile down from Persian heaven as Farsi is spoken from Greece to the Punjab.

Spoiler Iran 4 :

Whoa, Ottomans and Mughals at the top of the scoreboard, who saw that coming? Mughals got Heritage in 1495, but still have Finance and Cartography to complete the medieval techs. Mughals were first to get Gunpowder and Crop Rotation, because they spawned with them.
Ottomans are also in the Renaissance, having researched Firearms in 1495. But they don't have Patronage or Education, or any other third row medieval tech that doesn't lead to Firearms.
As usual, Korea is also in the Renaissance, getting Statecraft in 1495. This year sure is coming up a lot! They were first to Judiciary and Printing too.
France is doing the European thing of ignoring peaceful techs at all costs. They have Gunpowder, Companies, and Finance in the third medieval row, and everything except Education and Doctrine in the second row. You guys are seeing the pattern, right?
Spain conquered Cordoba, but is still working in many medieval techs.
Toltecs are alive in 1500! Barely, but they're still around. I've never seen that before.
I don't think there's anything else happening here that we haven't seen before. Iran, Muhgals, Ottomans, and Korea are in the Renaissance, everyone else still has several medieval techs left.

Spoiler Iran 5 :

TOTAL MUGHAL VICTORY! They control all cities in mainland India in 1500! Unfortunately, this conquest came at an economic cost, and they only have Gunpowder and Humanities in their third row of medieval techs.
Sweden of all civs researched Firearms first in 1495! Welcome to the Renaissance, Karl Gustav.
France is not far behind on Firearms, they were even the first civ to Finance in 1480.
Korea is an almost identical technological situation as France.
Japan has the bottom two medieval techs in the third row, but needs the other five.
Ottomans are struggling, they don't have Patronage or Education, and only have Gunpowder and Companies in the third row.
England has ignored Education and Doctrine to beeline Exploration. They're four turns off from it.
Spain did not conquer Cordoba, but they're gunning for Exploration, at the cost of ignoring, you guessed it, Doctrine and Education.
In this game, Iran and Sweden are the only civs in the Renaissance.

So what common trends did I observe?

• Civs like the Mughals, Italy, Sweden, and Iran are often the first to late Medieval or early Renaissance techs because they spawn with them
• Korea is a meme that should not be taken seriously for these tech balancing tests
• European civs are mostly ignoring the bottom rows of medieval techs to rush Firearms or Exploration, and sometimes Logistics
• Russia did its own thing, they were often going for Statecraft, which meant researching bottom row techs only the Asian civs had gone for. Alexander III was right, Russia is not a European country!
• In general, the entire world is behind where it should be, by at least one row of techs, if not two. I think by 1500, the Mediterranean civs should be wrapping up the third row of medieval techs with the Northern Europeans not far behind, while the Middle East and Asia should be solidly in the first row of Renaissance techs but starting to slow down as they hit the limits of what pre-industrial economies can do.
• In my Prussia runs above, I noticed a general paucity of European colonies, excluding games where Spain actually did something. I think the tech slowness in 1500 is the culprit, Europeans don't even have Cartography in many cases in 1500, let alone Exploration. Back when I was doing my Dutch test runs to see if they were always founding Protestantism on spawn, months ago, I noticed how rare it was for any Europeans to have anything but conqueror holdings in the New World in 1580. Now I know why. I doubt most civs have Exploration in 1580 at the rate techs are going.
• In conclusion, in a player-less world in 1500, Iran is the only guaranteed civ to be in the Renaissance in 1500. Korea has a very good shot at making it because it's a meme civ. Ottomans and Mughals both have high potential to make it, and sometimes there's flukes like that Mongolia with Logistics or Sweden with Firearms, but no AI civ will for sure reach the Renaissance before Iran spawns in 1500. I think 1.18 definitely has a tech problem right now.