Tech pace in HOF games

[AnthonyIII]

Tonight I've had a go at a 20K game for the first time and august's HOF game(SS, regent, small). I abandoned both games quickly as I understood this wasn't going to be any good. After a tips from Aabraxan, I headed towards the HOF part of the forum where I downloaded a bunch of saves. Diplo in 460AD, Space i 730 were only some of the games that would have made my jaw drop if I wasn't so tired. I mean, come on - rails by 100AD? Wow. I've gone through a couple of the saves and the one thing they all have in common is a LOT of workers. But what I was most impressed with was the tech pace. In the saves I opened, middle age and industrial techs were researched in 4-5 turns.

My question is how is this possible? How can one achieve this? Scientists in all towns and lots of workers? And how do you get the AI to keep up? Below emperor, the AI is always behind me in techs but the game pace is nothing like in theese HOF games. I'd really like some hints and tips on how to improve my plaing in this area. I know that these HOF games have very good starting locations, but still... it's pretty impressive.

So has anyone got some sound advices?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Tonight I've had a go at a 20K game for the first time and august's HOF game(SS, regent, small). I abandoned both games quickly as I understood this wasn't going to be any good. After a tips from Aabraxan, I headed towards the HOF part of the forum where I downloaded a bunch of saves. Diplo in 460AD, Space i 730 were only some of the games that would have made my jaw drop if I wasn't so tired. I mean, come on - rails by 100AD? Wow. I've gone through a couple of the saves and the one thing they all have in common is a LOT of workers. But what I was most impressed with was the tech pace. In the saves I opened, middle age and industrial techs were researched in 4-5 turns.

My question is how is this possible? How can one achieve this? Scientists in all towns and lots of workers? And how do you get the AI to keep up? Below emperor, the AI is always behind me in techs but the game pace is nothing like in theese HOF games. I'd really like some hints and tips on how to improve my plaing in this area. I know that these HOF games have very good starting locations, but still... it's pretty impressive.

So has anyone got some sound advices?

There is no really easy answer. By and large it is a culmination of good starts, good luck, and good play.

My question is how is this possible? How can one achieve this? Scientists in all towns and lots of workers?

Simply look at the games and check when the Pyramids were completed and when the second town went up. Chances are there was an early SGL and/or an early settler from a goody hut.

And how do you get the AI to keep up? Below emperor, the AI is always behind me in techs but the game pace is nothing like in theese HOF games.

The AIs do not really keep up in these games either. Instead, at each age change they are gifted up so you can trade for their free tech before you get your own. (Pay good attention to the traits the AI civs have in fast research games. ) Using this technique it is possible to get second tier techs as your freebie, like Electricity or so.

 

[vmxa]

Understand that HoF games are cooked. That is they run an app to gen up a bunch of saves that match some criteria. Then they choose the one that looks the best for the goal. Then if they do not get what is needed they toss that game and start another till they find the winner.

This tends to mean they must get an SGL at some early point to rush a key wonder like the Pryamid.

 

[Spoonwood]

Settler factories and worker pumps help. Also, you'll often find a GA triggered either through some inexpensive war (say with Persia) or something like the Museum of Mausollos and another wonder build to trigger a GA. That helps get infrastructure up. Note that not all HoF games are cooked, though almost all of the best spots do qualify as cooked. Military really doesn't need built until you have strong infrastructure up, and get to Republic ASAP. You might want to look at old gauntlets like this one. DaveMcW probably can accurately to have given us the "prototype" game for fast research. SirPleb also has some very excellent notes. At least for standard or large maps probably up to Regent. Here's a tiny emperor diplomatic gauntlet (space plays similarly... though as long as you can manage it, you want to use ToE for modern era techs in a space game... but I wouldn't try that on Deity or Sid) from a while ago. Here's a very informative gauntlet from a while ago. This thread might also help for a Deity space game. For Sid level you'll almost surely want to use the trick which I outline here. The HoF annex may also have some old gauntlets which have some useful information. This takes for granted that you know how to do things like run a settler factory, know to pick up second level techs, (buy all first level techs with gpt if necessary, and then sell your second level tech for that gpt), of course. Oh... and I strongly recommend turning down the aggression level to "least aggressive". Also, see the current gauntlet.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Lord Emsworth: While I agree that a good start has much to say in 20K games, much more than in con/dom games I also believe that these games are played very good indeed. You did excellent on your last game, congrats on that! And luck of course, yes... SGL's can make a huge difference. Hmm... so when people talk about "gifting the AI into the MA" they mean you should have the AI's enter first, then you enter and trade for their tech? Or should you enter first and bring them along after?

vmxa: Yes, read about this program and downloaded it today. It's called mapfinder and I won't be using it because it made me spend more time waiting for the perfect start then actually playing, haha. I got greedy and wanted a better and better start... Maybe I'll use it for 20k only. And I have no intention on submitting games to the HOF I just think I can learn quite a bit from looking at saves there. Cultural, diplo and space vc's that is, warring I learn from you!

Spoonwood, thanks a lot! I've managed to set up a 20K city, a settler pump and a worker/military factory for my three first cities. They're relatively close and have OK locations. So not too much corruption. I'm also aware of the huge advantage of the GA and now try to get it in the MA. For the first time tonight I set agression level to lowest as I was trying for 20K, but don't you think the chinese razed two of my cities anyway. Huh. It's not considered cheating to lower the agression level? I mean sure, the options are there to be used, but I don't know.
When you say that military can be put on hold, what difficulty are you thinking? I'd like to have a go at 20K on emperor. I will read carefully through all your links and hopefully I'll be able to make some progress. Thanks again, all of you!

 

[Puppeteer]

Hmm... so when people talk about "gifting the AI into the MA" they mean you should have the AI's enter first, then you enter and trade for their tech? Or should you enter first and bring them along after?

You get there first, but choose "big picture" instead of selecting your next tech, then switch to trade screen, then gift scientific AI to the end of the age and trade for their free tech. See this article by DaveMcW.

Scientific Double Slingshot (Civ3, C3C)

Does it annoy you when a scientific AI gets the same free tech as your scientific civ? Never let it happen again!

To pull this off you need a lot of gold in the bank, or optional techs from the previous age to barter with. Finish researching the last tech of the previous age, and a popup will appear congratulating you on entering the new era. Click "What's the big picture" and you will zoom to your research screen - without your free tech!

Hit F4 to tab to the foreign minister and buy the free techs from all your scientific rivals. You may need to gift them into the new age. Pay gold, gpt, anything to get those techs. Hit F1 adjust your gpt income. You will get it all back soon.

Now exit out of the foreign minister and continue your turn. When the build phase finishes check your research screen - you have a different free tech that none of the AIs have. If you got all the first-level techs already, it will be a second-level tech like Theology, Industrialization, or Space Flight! Sell it to your scientific rivals to get your money back.

By "get it all back soon" he means if you acquire their free tech then you will get your free tech at monopoly, and since you're giving them gpt you can probably get some or all of your gpt back when you sell them your new free tech.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Wow. How brilliant is that.

 

[Spoonwood]

When running MapFinder, AFAIK, most people go and do something else, including sleep. Also, from an informal survey a little while ago, it seems that people often set MapFinder to something like a river and a cow. MapFinder only allows you to see the first 9 tiles, so anything more ends up throwing out too many potentially powerful maps. I know for plenty of 20k games, I've founded my capital and abandoned the game immediately after founding it, because I wanted a second cow or more production potential in my 20k city.

The only time "cheating" makes sense comes as when you play against a bunch of people in some way, or play with a group of people in a succession game. For the HoF anyone can lower their aggression rate as low as they like, so no it's not cheating for the HoF... in fact I'm fairly sure that the highest scoring HoF game ever had its aggression rate at the lowest setting. On most maps the military can get put on hold for any level. Tiny maps seem to pose the most problems with sneak attacks.

You don't necessarily want to gift everyone around in a 20k game. You might if you play at a low level for you. You basically want to control the tech pace such that you can build what you want, when you want. On even Emperor level it can backfire to gift scientific tribes up for their free techs, and I only know of one game that used gifting well on Demi-God. The most important, in my opinion, turns in a 20k game come in the first 50 or so turns.

Paciloi and I played a HoF-like 20k game a while ago (see the links in the first post there also). What size map are you playing on? Standard Emperor and Large Emperor 20k both have an empty spot on the table in the HoF (each table can take up to 10 entries), and Huge Emperor has 4 empty spots. If you have a game that you can submit, I'd suggest you submit. A good number of tables for different victory conditions have open spots, and the 10th and even middle spots on many tables do come as beatable without too much game experience or finding of ideal starts.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Yes, it's true that it only gives away the first 9 tiles - I've noticed what I though was a great start turn around to be only wetlands when exploring, so mapfinder doesn't help you with everything. But a nice tool for people playing HOF games. Yeah, I've tried playing with the lowest AL now, and then the game started reminding me of CIV4 a bit, you could actually build up cities and roads without beeing to afraid of getting attacked. However, I've had undefended cities attacked by militaristic civs quite often - when they're close to that civ's border that is. It makes for a different experience indeed.
When you say the most important turns come in the 50 first turnsm I take it you mean maximizing your 20K city's production and growth. Or do you mean get the important AA wonders? Am I doomed if I don't get the Pyramids for exampel? So far, I've tended to get The Collosus, Pyramids, MM, GL and HG. Often miss out on the rest.

I've had a look at some of the articles you tipsed me on, and it's interesting reading. I'm learning a new way to pla CIV3, which is good fun. I'll check out your Demi-God game. I'm going for standard or small map. This only trying and failing at the moment though. I don't have a finished game yet, but hopefully soon! I will probably submit if I can get in on the table but mind you, I have a loooong way to go. Couple of questions:

-How much culture pr turn must your city make to finish before 1750AD?
-When looking up civassist2, it often says "estimated win date 2175 or something, even after I've built 5 AA wonders and are in 200AD". Does the culture increase a lot in the MA and on or do I need all these wonders much earlier? I tend to give up if I check CA2 and find it's a long way to victory.
-When going for 20K so far I've also put up to cities close to it, one as a settler pump and one as a worker/military pump. I'd like to develop my civilization and not only have three cities. Is this wrong? Should I not spend time on settlers? I'm thinking more cities, more money - faster research.
-Just to make it clear, I take it you don't want any other government than The Republic in these games?

Cheers.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Wow. How brilliant is that.

Well yes, it's quite brilliant when it works, but it really is much harder in normal play than that description suggests. Under what I consider to be competitive conditions (i.e. Game of the Month) I've got a second tier free tech about once in about fifty C3C games. The difficulties tend to be:
- there's not usually that many SCI civs. Of course, if you were playing a HoF game for one of the science VCs, you'd cook the civ line-up.
- you often didn't meet everyone yet, at least when entering the medieval and not playing pangaea, because your suicide galleys keep sinking.
- you scrabble around desperately to find 100gpt, offer it to the civ that drew Feudalism, and get sneered at. If you can get one of the AA optionals as a local monopoly, you're probably okay though.
- you give everyone all your gpt for their free techs, then call them up again to trade all these techs around and get your gpt back. Everyone says: "gpt, what gpt? I don't have any of that "

Also, this whole business doesn't work in Play The World, because the New Era dialog works slightly different.

 

[PaperBeetle]

-How much culture pr turn must your city make to finish before 1750AD?

It can be really variable, depending how the game plays out. You'd always expect to end over 100cpt. I was on 151cpt on my final turn the last time I got a pre-1750ad date.

-When looking up civassist2, it often says "estimated win date 2175 or something, even after I've built 5 AA wonders and are in 200AD". Does the culture increase a lot in the MA and on or do I need all these wonders much earlier? I tend to give up if I check CA2 and find it's a long way to victory.

Well you probably need to play some 20k games through to victory to convince yourself that it's okay. When I first heard of 20k, I seriously didn't believe it was actually possible to get that much culture, until I actually comitted to winning that VC. If you've got 5 AA wonders before 200ad, you're on for a good date. Don't bother checking CA2 until after Shakespeare. It should say something encouraging by then.

-When going for 20K so far I've also put up to cities close to it, one as a settler pump and one as a worker/military pump. I'd like to develop my civilization and not only have three cities. Is this wrong? Should I not spend time on settlers? I'm thinking more cities, more money - faster research.

Can't argue with that. 20k is fundamentally a scientific VC, so expansion is crucial as ever. But the genius of this particular VC is that it so different from all the others in the game, creating this huge early tension between your normal expansion and your need to optimise your 20k city at all costs. In fact, it's such a brilliantly structured gametype that I can't believe even Firaxis could have been so dim as to effectively abandon it for Civ4 and CivV. But then their understanding of their own games has always been shallow.. [/rant]

-Just to make it clear, I take it you don't want any other government than The Republic in these games?

Yup. Because (a) it's a science game so you'd research too slow in Monarchy / Feudalism, and (b) you don't accrue culture while in anarchy, so even though you get to Democracy quickly in a 20k game, you don't want to waste precious turns of culture or production switching governments.

 

[AnthonyIII]

PaperBeetle, thanks mate! You've given me some courage again! I also think it's an excellent WC and so totally different from the others... Maybe it would have been more difficult in 4 as the opponents there are better builders?

Ohh, another question while I have you here: Have you gotten an SGL for a tech you've been first to - but not researched 100%? I haven't had an SGL in 10 games now, the two I got was after I finished a tech first at 100%. I never get one for researching writing for exampel, which I always research at 10/20%.

EDIT: Got one just now, it after researching philo on max and taking Litterature as free tech for the GL.

 

[Spoonwood]

When going for 20K so far I've also put up to cities close to it, one as a settler pump and one as a worker/military pump. I'd like to develop my civilization and not only have three cities. Is this wrong? Should I not spend time on settlers? I'm thinking more cities, more money - faster research.

Faster research only helps you finish faster if it gets your 20k city more culture earlier. So, almost without exception, with the capital as the 20k city, after the capital has put out a scouting unit, a settler, and a worker or two, it will ideally build nothing but culture the rest of the game. I mentioned the first 50 turns, because you want to get your 20k site to size 12 ASAP. So, with very rare exceptions, it works best for the second city to put out workers and warriors (to serve as military police in the capital), or just workers until the capital gets 12 fully developed tiles, and then add in then workers. THEN you want to expand your empire. Expansion IS NOT crucial. Once you have your 20k site to size 12, THEN you want to expand for luxuries, commerce for research and hopefully to short-rush cultural improvements, and so you have enough military to spawn a leader for the Heroic Epic.

There do exist some cases where a quick revolution to Monarchy can make sense in a 20k game, but they are very, very rare (I've only done it on Sid I think). So, yes, use The Republic.

Cultural buildings double in culture after 1000 years of standing erect.

Preselecting opponents can also help, as I think you've read in one of the links.

If you don't know what I mean by short-rushing, then I'll remark that a scientific tribe needs 40 shields for a library and 20 shields for a spearman. So, if it makes 20 shields per turn, then you can short-rush a worker for 80 gold, then before the turn ends short-rush a spearmen for 40 more gold, and finally swap production to the library and you'll finish the library for a measly 120 gold instead of paying 320 gold for it. Disbanding units can also help for this.

And good questions!

 

[AnthonyIII]

Thank you Spoonwood. I did what you've said and this is my best game so far. I'm up 3-6 techs on everyone, except one AI - no one is ahead. 821g in the bank, researching republic at max - due in 5. It's 410 BC, I screwed up a bit because I entered a GA after building the GL, so I'm having a Despotic GA... However, so far I've built Collosus, Pyramids, SOZ, GL in my capital. I know have some choices: Build The Great Lighthouse or The Great Wall, both will take 14 turns. This is not completely true since my GA will end in 9 turns and these wonders will take longer. I'm also keen on switching to Republic quite soon. I can also build Library(2t), Courthouse(4t) and Colloseum(6t). Hmm... How can I best come out of this sticky situation? My capital is siza 10 by the way, due to not the best start. It's growing though.

EDIT:I can also add that I've met everyone and are playing as The Byzantines on archipalego map, standard. So I guess the Great Lighthouse doesn't really seem worth it... Edit2:GL out of the picture, China built it.

 

[Spoonwood]

A courthouse won't do anything in your capital ever (unless you go Commie, I think, which I've never done). No culture, nothing. If you have The Great Lighthouse, the AIs don't. Generally in a 20k you want to keep your research as high as you can without using too much on the luxury slider, while keeping the AIs as backward as you can. That said, it does sound like you'll win your game.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Aha, OK. What I did was I traded Republic for Monarchy with the Germans and switched to the Hanging Gardens. Got that, then my GA was over and I went Republic. Now entered the MA and got Theology as my free tech thanks to the double slingshot mentioned above. Building the Sistine Chapel now, 24 turns left. Hmm... Keep the AI backwards? What about this slingshot, I gifted everyone into the MA, had to give Gandhi 9 techs or something, poor guy was so behind. However, he din't get a free tech. That's only for scientific civs?
Also, my capital is making 25 food pr turn and only 17 shields pr turn. Can I plant forests for extra shields like you mentioned in your game 20K Demi-God game?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Aha, OK. What I did was I traded Republic for Monarchy with the Germans and switched to the Hanging Gardens. Got that, then my GA was over and I went Republic. Now entered the MA and got Theology as my free tech thanks to the double slingshot mentioned above. Building the Sistine Chapel now, 24 turns left. Hmm... Keep the AI backwards? What about this slingshot, I gifted everyone into the MA, had to give Gandhi 9 techs or something, poor guy was so behind. However, he din't get a free tech. That's only for scientific civs?
Also, my capital is making 25 food pr turn and only 17 shields pr turn. Can I plant forests for extra shields like you mentioned in your game 20K Demi-God game?

The tech freebie is only for scientific civs, yes. And you can plant forests if you have Engineering. It only makes sense to plant forests on normal Grasslands, or Grasslands with a food bonus or resource. I tend to plant on tiles that do not have a forest ... err ... naturally, like grassland cows or so. Looks cute and I have a mnemonic that I planted the forest. ETA: An alternative to planting forests on grassland tiles is to simply mine plains, if you have. It is a little cheaper in terms of worker turns and there is no tech requirement.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Lord Emsworth: While I agree that a good start has much to say in 20K games, much more than in con/dom games I also believe that these games are played very good indeed. You did excellent on your last game, congrats on that!

Thanks. But my last game was a small hist game with the Maya on Emperor. You are not thinking of that?

 

[Spoonwood]

Hmm... Keep the AI backwards? What about this slingshot, I gifted everyone into the MA, had to give Gandhi 9 techs or something, poor guy was so behind.

For a space or diplomatic game the free tech slingshots make sense. But, in a 20k they only make sense if the AIs won't build any wonders you want if you do them. Sometimes you can lose say Newton's if you gift them up due to a Leonardo's Workshop cascade.

 

[AnthonyIII]

Lord Emsworth:Is it a reason for planting on this tiles? Can a forest make more than two shields? Yes, I was thinking of that game. Interesting city names and very well played!

Spoonwood, that's exactly what's going on now... Because I have gifted lots of civs up, everyone is trying to build Newton. Germany is 10 turns from completing, I'm 13 atm. I can rework some tile and get it down to 11 but it seems like I will lose it. I really have to go back and find out where I lost that turn to learn. I'm thinking they had some kind of prebuild which I did not have. I prebuilt with Copernicus, but I think they had started the one earler. Did you see my question regarding the SGL? I only get SGL's after finished techs I've researched at 100%, never the techs I've been first to at 10%. Is this a rule or just random?

EDIT:Well, this is a bit strange. I've gone back a couple of saves and in the first save the Germans are 32 turns from finishing Copernicus, I'm 27 from finishing. Some turns later, Germans are 28 away - I'm 24. So here they've taken in 1 turn on me. The next turn, the Inca's finish Copernicus and I get a message telling me that the Germans have started Newton and they're only 10 turns away! I on the other hand, after beeing upfront on Copernicus now is 3 turns behind - looking at 13 turns to complete Newton. Hmm. Could some more experienced players tell me what's going on? Do they get a bonus or something? Level is emperor.