Tech Pace

[Bleser]

there might not be, but the Eureka percent value is a single number, so it's easy to do.

Thanks! Do you know off-hand what file the number is in? I think if I just greatly reduce this percentage than everything will slow down quite a bit. Worth trying in my next game.

Is it POLICY_ENACTED_DISCOUNT in GlobalParameters.xml? The value of that is currently 50.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Wasn't it like this in Civ5 where you had to complete all era tech before moving on?

Civ V have the same system as Civ VI. It is Civ III that had the era lock which was to be honest a poor system.

 

[valerislysander]

Civ V have the same system as Civ VI. It is Civ III that had the era lock which was to be honest a poor system.

Ah thanks for this its coming back to me now I think often played my games as if there is an era lock although I have played a few games in civ6 bee-lining to different techs or civics but it just feels wrong to me. I found two mods on steam, one that locks the eras down or another mod that changes the way you can reach eras so limiting the bee-lining and it also reduces eurekas to 35% which I might try out

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Thanks! Do you know off-hand what file the number is in? I think if I just greatly reduce this percentage than everything will slow down quite a bit. Worth trying in my next game.

I'm sure there's a couple different mods out there that already do this. However, FYI, the Eurekas/Inspirations are called boosts in the Technologies.xml file. To change them all at once put the following SQL code into a mod:

UPDATE Boosts SET Boost = XX;

Where XX = the percent you want. This will also affect China's Dynastic Cycle ability as well.

 

[PYITE]

IMO the developers were trying for a faster paced game then previous versions. Maybe remove some of the late game tedium by making it go by faster. District costs, chopping yields and GPP from district projects all scale based on your higher percentage of civic or techs completed. So while districts cost more as you progress, you get higher yields from chopping and projects. So the later part of the game you are mostly just running district projects and pumping out workers to chop/harvest everything in site. The most advanced civs have an enormous production advantage because of chopping scaling.

I also like to have games last longer. If you advance more slowly by increasing tech/civic costs then you shift the amount of production that comes from chopping and move it to city yields. It allows for more developed cities, it is actually worth it to build 2nd and 3rd districts in cities that are founded after turn 100. The game will also feature larger armies and more action. This will also nerf some of the great scientists like Galileo who give science from adjacent features who can be extremely OP compared with others. More great people will be taken throughout the game because the global average era advancement will be reduced.

My suggested mod to use is slower research per era where you can set an independent multiplier for each era of tech and culture. The values are easily editable, allowing you to pick the pace that most suits you.

Here is a link to Wolf2001 mods on the workshop. This link also contains mods that change eureka values and unit costs, both are fun to play around with to change game dynamics.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=876545962

 

[UWHabs]

Some neat options and ideas. I definitely like the idea that things need to happen more naturally. The eureka are a great start, but part of me would like to see things extend even further. Part of the problem though is that through the ages, "science" is how you discover new things.

I think what should likely happen is a big change to how you progress. So instead of having a "science" tree, I think if we had 3-4 different "trees" that you progress along based on other progress, then science would simply be something which speeds up those other trees.

So, for example, say your trees are army, navy, culture, faith, and civics. How you progress along each tree would be a combination of points from districts, as well as points earned through other tasks (essentially eurekas). So for example, a coastal city may give you 2 points per turn towards the navy. Each boat that you build would give you some points too, so that essentially if you don't build a galley, you'll never really learn or care about ironclads.In this case, maybe science would turn into some global modifier, so that if you build campuses everywhere maybe each tree goes at double speed, but science itself doesn't get you ahead. You still have the snowball effect, though, as presumably building more districts would get you ahead faster, but at least if it spreads out to multiple trees, maybe you can at least specialize your empire a little more.

Would have to be balanced, and the big flaw is that it becomes quite complicated as opposed to the simple "science = good" type philosophy from the entire series to date. But it kind of takes the eureka system and goes crazy with it.

 

[Sostratus]

I agree with others that the early game pace isn't so bad (maybe a touch speedy, but that's more from beelining than anything.) Once you get to that mid sized empire point, though, it starts getting out of control.
It's true that you get a lot of science from pop, but Civ5 had that too.

1. Slowing down the Campus spammers
IMO one of the big culprits is how universities and research labs work now vs Civ 5. They are all flat yield, unlike the library and public school of yore which gave you more based on population. Perhaps we might think of returning to that- let one or two science buildings give boni for having a large or developed city instead of just extra beakers.

• Library can stay at +2 (cut the Ancient era some slack!)
• University could be extra X% science from population (to make them viable only for the big cities. Could see Unis as more of an abstract, improving the general knowledge of the populace type deal)
• Research lab could give +Y science to each specialized district in the city. (To really make them attractive in your largest cities, most developed cities. Labs are specialized places; colocation with other sectors is a boon!)

While I think there's too many beakers up for grabs as is, that +100% science from campus buildings card is nuts. That's TWELVE science per campus. There's a reason the Industrial zone buildings don't get one. I think the adjacency boost is enough, because it really powers up those prime +4 sites but doesn't do much for that +1 built out in the backwater. Hence, if we shift the bonus beakers away from the buildings and instead tie it to development, we can achieve what a lot of people in this thread seem to be after. And it would be nice to give some "tall" pressure on empires in the mid game.

Another avenue of approach is to make the upper tier buildings more expensive in maintenance. I'll spam campuses everywhere because I don't feel it; it doesn't slow me down. If the amount of gold in the game was pared back, then players would also need to think "Hmm, if I want to invest heavy into science, I'll need to send more traders abroad to fund everything, costing me the growth from those domestic yields." That would also help put some brakes on Beech's Law of 'More Science=More Everything.' This probably isn't the place to delve into trade and commerce reform, though.

2. Not making a science lead a 1:1 general game lead
Now, under the current game mechanics, even if we take the nerf bat to the campus spam strategy, it's still going to be true that a science lead translates into a lead everywhere. So, as some have mentioned, we could have trade routes diffuse technology. Not the cutting edge, space program stuff- that should be the realm of old fashioned espionage. But perhaps allowing players to research techs faster (eventually giving a eureka) the more civs know them, or the more civs they trade with. (And possibly even some from having battles with their advanced units!)
That way, the science balance can be brought about by figuring out how fast we want a heavy science player in isolation to advance, then keeping the rest of the world roughly within a certain distance so it's not too overpowering. And the civs at the back of the pack could never truly get ahead this way, they would always stay behind unless they build more science. So the benefit of science is still present.
One could also implement diplomatic policy cards that improve (for lagging civs) or cut down on (for leading civs) this diffusion, to offer some extra strategic choices.

 

[dexters]

The issue actually isn't my tech pace, it's the AI's tech pace. Within the first 20 turns lead AI can get to 33+ bpt , and I've just built my 2nd city and no districts yet and I'm sitting at 7-8 bpt, I may get more if I met a scientific CS but that's the kind of race you're looking at now (immortal/standard speed/rules, no mods)

 

[Victoria]

I am with lilylancer on this and always said people are comparing techs with dates and it's the dates that are wrong, changing the techs / eurekas messes with more of the game.
The thread has been repeated quite a few times with the same ideas, some a great ideas, not nocking them, more just saying it's a simple problem.

The AI tech increase is part of the challenge, not part of the problem in my view.

 

[DemonMaster]

I have now tested both Maddjinn's Tech Tree mod and also a mod called Real Tech Tree and both of them did at quite a good job I must say (better than vanilla anyway).

 

[UWHabs]

I am with lilylancer on this and always said people are comparing techs with dates and it's the dates that are wrong, changing the techs / eurekas messes with more of the game.
The thread has been repeated quite a few times with the same ideas, some a great ideas, not nocking them, more just saying it's a simple problem.

The AI tech increase is part of the challenge, not part of the problem in my view.

I've stopped looking at in-game dates, but I do still find the pace in terms of numbers of turns is still off. Early game techs are routinely 10-12 turns or more, but by the late game, if a tech is going to take me more than 6-8 turns it feels like I'm just lagging like crazy. I mean, turns early on are shorter too when you only have 2 units to move, so some of that just makes sense, but my sense is the tech pace problem is more just that there's not quite the right balance between production and science as there should be. When building a university takes 20 turns, but you can research 5 new techs in that time, maybe even all the way to research labs, that's a problem.

 

[Manifold]

It must have a cost effect on how many other Civs and especially neighboring and trading partners have a tech.
Espionage from antiquity on should be more important to get new techs.
Focusing on one victory path is not fundamentally bad. But a breakthrough and technological lead was a challenge and normally opened the Civs only a small window of time to use this advantage.


Suggestion:

The tech rates from the Classic Age on should be doubled.
For every Civ on the same continent like your capital and every trading partner with a certain Tech the costs were reduced by 10%.
Move the university to the civic tree maybe to "Guilds".
You get your first spy with "Early Empire" another early spy with "Mercenaries".

 

[Victoria]

When building a university takes 20 turns, but you can research 5 new techs in that time, maybe even all the way to research labs, that's a problem.

I used to play 20 turn universities before I fully understood the delayed chop is uber and gold is god. Buying and chopping rocks.

This then leads on to the fact that if you play science right you are just ripping the tree to pieces by t100 and your 6-8 turns becomes 1-3 turns. We need to play catchup on deity at quite a strong pace and people play at different science levels. Matching pace when there is so much disparity in the games feels weird to me but it's just my view.

 

[Acken]

The issue actually isn't my tech pace, it's the AI's tech pace. Within the first 20 turns lead AI can get to 33+ bpt , and I've just built my 2nd city and no districts yet and I'm sitting at 7-8 bpt, I may get more if I met a scientific CS but that's the kind of race you're looking at now (immortal/standard speed/rules, no mods)

But that's just an effect of AI bonus, not tech tree design. Wether it's desirable or not is another discussion. The idea is that you match your AI bonuses to the game systems to give the player a challenge not the other way around. If Firaxis decides that it is indeed too fast and make it slower then good thinking is also to reevaluate how it affects the AI bonuses...

When I change how something work in my mod I then sometimes change the AI bonuses as a result. It's just standard practice in balancing. An example is the fact that I reduced extra city tech penalty. Deity AI teched too fast therefore tech bonus was reduced.
Another Civ5 example is how AI production bonuses locks the player out of wonders in harder difficulties. It indeed creates a difficulty but also frustration for not being allowed to get early wonders. As a result I made it so the AI disregard temporarily wonders for the start of the game to give the player more choice there. The AI is not weaker because it develops anyway but at least if you really want to get GL/ToA you have a shot at it (not always).

Also you're just playing catchup similar to Civ5 and then it's over.

 

[dagriggstar]

Have my own mod where I nerfed science and culture rates (Well for the lead civs at least)......current game epic speed the tech/civic leaders hit Renaissance about 40 turns too early (Most of the great people from the medieval era were actually taken, all of the writers, scientists, generals and admirals went) but I feel like it's still better than the base game. I don't think I noticed it as much beforehand, because the tech rate was so fast, but the tech tree is really poorly laid out. I'm playing as Russia and probably going to beeline for Cossacks, won't even have Gunpowder, however that works.

I think ideally you need 3 columns per era, instead of 2. With only 2 columns it's just too easy to tech like 3 techs in an era and then move onto the next one.

If we take a standard game (500 turns) divide by eras (8) we should get ~ 62.5 turns in each era. With 3 columns per era you would probably want 9 techs per era, so target (from a game design perspective) would be a tech every 6.9 turns.

Alternatively for something more creative, if you can imagine each era having it's own independent tree, but moving onto the next era only when global science hits a certain number of beakers. Then the next eras tree is then opened for everyone, essentially resetting the race.

 

[valerislysander]

I am with lilylancer on this and always said people are comparing techs with dates and it's the dates that are wrong, changing the techs / eurekas messes with more of the game.
The thread has been repeated quite a few times with the same ideas, some a great ideas, not nocking them, more just saying it's a simple problem.

The AI tech increase is part of the challenge, not part of the problem in my view.

Indeed it seems the problem most people have is whether the date is correct compared to the tech era. But every civ in the game is moving tech eras at different pace, thats the point of the game, the challenge to rush science to beat your fellow civs before they get there. Civ is designed this way. I do think tech boosts need to be nerfed that would improve the pacing of the tech tree through the game though.
But hey i lost a game on prince yesterday not realising kongo had bee-lined to some techs in the atomic era and had far out paced my military in terms of tech so by the time i got to go to war with them they smashed my army up and won a culture victory

 

[Victoria]

Another point with out-teching is that when you look in the tech tree and see Kongo way ahead era wise it looks scary but if you look at the science output in the victory screens and how many techs each civ has it's not so bad.

The tech screen gives a false impression.

 

[MrRadar]

Another point with out-teching is that when you look in the tech tree and see Kongo way ahead era wise it looks scary but if you look at the science output in the victory screens and how many techs each civ has it's not so bad.

The tech screen gives a false impression.

Which is again because of the insane beelining possibilities in the current tech tree.

Apart from creating more logical links in the tech tree, and maybe adding optional links for reaching certain techs via different paths (like in Civ IV), I would probably also like to see different eureka boosts in different eras. Starting from 20 % in the Ancient era, then with +5pp increments for every next era the eureka boost would reach 50 % in the Information era. This would be to to simulate slower spread of innovation in earlier times.

 

[PYITE]

I am with lilylancer on this and always said people are comparing techs with dates and it's the dates that are wrong, changing the techs / eurekas messes with more of the game.
The thread has been repeated quite a few times with the same ideas, some a great ideas, not nocking them, more just saying it's a simple problem.

The AI tech increase is part of the challenge, not part of the problem in my view.

I don't care what the calendar says, it's the turn count that is the issue for me. Finishing the tech tree by turn 150 is to quick for the length and type of game I sometimes prefer over the vanilla pace.
The vanilla game is fun, I'm not knocking it. It's just more of a bulldozer game then the empire building type game that I prefer.
Changing tech/civics values does mess with some parts of the game but it's not like we are painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. The only thing that religion and most of the wonders do, is make the AI less of a challenge.
I like more of a challenge from the AI, so I use mods that give them bonuses above Diety level and have them increase as they advance eras. Combined with pace slowing mods you get a game with different dynamics that I prefer. I'm not saying that this is how the game should be or that vanilla is broken, It's just how I prefer to play. I'm just trying to help guide the way for people who prefer a similar game pace as myself. The steam workshop is a nightmare to search through.
If I can bring just one smile to a civfanatic in need then my efforts will have been worth it.

 

[Jaybe]

I use https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/time-x-all-in-one.25564/ at 2x so that culture, science and great people take twice as long to get (3, 4 and 5x multiplies are also available in the mod).

At Prince/huge/epic/continents I still run through the whole tech/culture trees before the end of game (having MANY cities), but it is much better. The mod also fiddles with the turns/years progression but I comment that aspect out so my epic game is still 750 turns.