Tech Stealing

[WarKirby]

Something that's been bugging me.

Why doesn't FFH have the ability to steal technology from enemies?
I feel this lack makes warmonger civs like the Clan of Embers, and doviello, vastly underpowered. Their general theme is that they're not really capable of building and researching on their own, so they take what they need from others, by forcce, but why can't we steal techs ?

Aside from the forceful way, there's also the odd fact that even though FFH has a religion entirely devoted to covert activities, there's no way to use spies to steal techs either.

This means that short of building the Eyes and Ears network, (a lategame wonder that you'd be lucky to ever research so far as doviello given their necessity of focusing on military techs), the only way to get the techs your enemies have is trading.

Granted, you can try to get techs from them through diplomacy, but as I mention here, the AI has a tendancy of guarding their meagre secrets to the death. Farthermore, there is also the problem that even if you do get things out of them like that, you can only do so by agreeing to peace, which is often not what you want when you're trying to conquer the world.

Is there a reason you don't get techs when capturing cities in FFH ?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Is there a reason you don't get techs when capturing cities in FFH ?

War is very powerful. It disables your enemies, gains new land for you. I'm happy it doesn't do your research for you as well.

 

[WarKirby]

It disables one enemy, and ties up your economy with waging war while all your OTHER enemies are happily building their empires and gaining a tech lead over you.

Also, the Doviello are a complete failure in the hands of the AI, despite that it plays almost every civ as pure warmonger.

 

[Mesix]

You don't have to wipe out your enemies. You can always demand their technology as a concession for peace (or capitulation) after you have ravaged their lands with your war machine.

I realize that this does go away from the Barbarian code of ethics:

"Conan, what are the greatest things in life?"

"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to enjoy in the lamentation of their women."

 

[Imuratep]

The same reason because you don't get them since civ3: Warmongers would be vastly overpowered. And saying that warmonger civs are underpowered just shows that you haven't played them often enough (which should be no complain as everyone likes playing other civilizations). You just don't need 3/4 of the tech tree. With the Doviello essentially your research is done after bronzeworking and perhaps way of the wicked, if you keep on steamrolling your enemy. For me even Iron Working is a gimmick but I discover it to keep for all eventualities. Clan needs no more than wolf riders to kill everyone on their continent/everyone in Pangea, so this is the same. I understand that people want to exploit all unique mechanics of a civilization but you don't need to if you just play for a win.

 

[Fafnir13]

I find that a massive empire forged by conquest will have greater teching abilities then most small empires made peacefully. Even with the barbarian trait, I find myself out teching the rest of the world once I've taken a few civilizations down.

 

[FireBlaze]

Try a 30 civ game, deity, on any map. Getting 3 cities is an accomplishment that time. But by the time you get bronze working, the bigger AI's will have finished most of their teching xD

 

[Senethro]

The Doviello like Alteration as well. Enchanted Blades and Treetop defense are nice Tier 1 spells. I never go to war without my Shamans.

 

[FireBlaze]

I would think that haste would be a particular favorite for the Dovello. Gotta love declaring war and taking a city in a blitz in the first turn of it

 

[Lone Wolf]

Also, the Doviello are a complete failure in the hands of the AI, despite that it plays almost every civ as pure warmonger.

That's because AI rather sucks at war.

 

[MacMoney]

You don't have to wipe out your enemies. You can always demand their technology as a concession for peace (or capitulation) after you have ravaged their lands with your war machine.

It's just that when they're (the only) part of the Undercouncil and have made a pact to not share technology with people outside of it, you can't get any tech from them through peace. And even if you vassalize them and force them to adopt No Membership/Overcouncil, they still won't trade with you since you're their worst enemy (-17 for razing cities isn't easily compensated for). It's rather silly that I can't force my vassal to give me techs or die. Well, at least I have his mana. I don't really use War Machine for destroying improvements. You get so much gold from them by pillaging, especially as Mahala, that you want to do it with other units by hand.

I realize that this does go away from the Barbarian code of ethics:

"Conan, what are the greatest things in life?"

"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to enjoy in the lamentation of their women."

To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to enjoy the luxurities provided by their technology is the new and improved one I think.

 

[Imuratep]

Yes, that's a problem inherited by vanilla civ and I imagine that it will be hard to change that as a modder (It would be interesting to hear from an experienced modder if this is doable at all with the modding possibilities given to us by Firaxis.). I understand why Firaxis didn't make the AI beg for their lifes because otherwise warmongering would be THE way to go, but it's quite illogical that you razed half their empire and a peace treaty they are accepting contains a MAP. Especially if you demand cities they should consider that during 10 turns you took 3 cities, so what's so bad about losing one or two more city for the prize of a chance to rebuild?

 

[Lone Wolf]

Especially if you demand cities they should consider that during 10 turns you took 3 cities, so what's so bad about losing one or two more city for the prize of a chance to rebuild?

They know that after 10 turns you'll come after them anyway.

 

[Imuratep]

Right, peace treaties should last much longer (20-30 turns) to be a real diplomatic option.

 

[Jules.lt]

It would be interesting to have FiRe's tech diffusion concept extended:

- Techs diffuse through open borders and prolonged peace with civs that have them.
AND
- You get some beakers from conquering/razing a city, depending on the buildings in it.

Then it's all a matter of getting the figures right.
Peace should usually be more efficient, of course.

Better placed in a modmod, I think, but I thought I'd mention it.

 

[WarKirby]

As to peace treaties, I'd rather see the old Civ II system brought back. You can attack someone again on the same turn you sign a peace treaty if you like, but it creates a permanant black mark on your reputation, and makes other civs less willing to trade with/trust you.
But anyways, techs diffusing through open borders is a very good idea, too. The TR mod had it implemented like this:

Whenever you have open borders with a civ, who has the tech you're currently researching, all cities with trade routes to one of theirs get +100% research

Or it might have been just all cities, period.

However, back to the original topic.. I made a post about this in another thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7708968&postcount=27

Essentially, we could have partial tech stealing, dependant on the research output of the city you take.

 

[Emptiness]

You don't have to wipe out your enemies. You can always demand their technology as a concession for peace (or capitulation) after you have ravaged their lands with your war machine.

<snip> I don't really use War Machine for destroying improvements. You get so much gold from them by pillaging, especially as Mahala, that you want to do it with other units by hand.

I think Mesix meant "war machine" figuratively, as in "the German war machine brushes aside the Polish defenses", rather than as a reference to the Doviello UU The War Machine.

 

[Lone Wolf]

You can attack someone again on the same turn you sign a peace treaty if you like, but it creates a permanant black mark on your reputation, and makes other civs less willing to trade with/trust you.

Please, no more reputation crap, that was one of the worst features in Civ3.

 

[zup]

My reputation in SMAC got so bad once that I could not make any deals with anyone. Except the cease fire / non-aggression / peace stuff and even then I had to dominate them on the battlefield first. It was funny though. If I am a backstabbing bastard, surely they must notice sooner or later.

After that I always signed the bare minimum of treaties to break.

 

[WarKirby]

Please, no more reputation crap, that was one of the worst features in Civ3.

It would be a darn sight better than this magical contract that you can't ever break.

How in the hell does it make sense that you can't send troops into someone's territory because they gave you 20 gold sometime in the last 10 turns. Empires are founded on deception and double crossing, history is rife with betrayal.