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Tech trading needs adjustments

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by a3kov, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. a3kov

    a3kov Warlord

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    I love tech trading. There are some issues with the current values though:

    1. I can trade late renaissance techs for 3-4k, that seems fair. At the same time if I want to buy these techs from them, they charge 7k+ - a bit too much.
    2. Later something happens to civs, and they start offering only 1.5k even for atomic era techs. This is clearly broken, as these techs cost much more bulbs, and I wouldn't sell it for these amounts even to a friend. At this stage of the game its not uncommon to have 1k gold per turn, so... I think even if AI thinks they are "smarter" now and can research everything themselves, this is still a nonsense value.
     
    CppMaster likes this.
  2. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    That's why I hate tech trading :p
     
  3. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    @wobuffet Will your proposed reevaluation of how AI sees gold affect also this?
     
  4. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    It's not just about how much they think the tech is worth, it's about how much they are willing to give you.

    I tend to get decent values for selling tech, but buying is always going to be more expensive. The AI will always favour deals that help them more than they help you.
     
  5. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    Tech trading has the potential to be one of the most powerful sources of money in the game if you can get ahead in part of the tech tree at the right time and people like you. I've had an immortal game where I basically comboed out on tech trading to the tune of 1000s-2000s of gpt and then had neigh infinite money the rest of the game, easily enough to buy some techs at the higher rate. The key is to start by only selling a tech or two to everyone who will take it, turn that money into more science (especially with Banks), and then use that science to get a new tech to sell a few times.
     
  6. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    It can be extremely powerful, yes. Although I find that in games where I'm able to take best advantage of it I'm already in the lead. At the moment I'm playing a game where I was third or fourth in tech. The AI is less willing to sell to other AIs than I am though - so I was still able to make money, but not a ridiculous amount. I've also had games where I've sold a lot of tech to people I didn't think were a threat, but who later declared war on me XD. So... with great knowledge comes great responsability or something.
     
  7. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    IMHO this tech trading is very broken. It'd better be tweaked.
     
  8. a3kov

    a3kov Warlord

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    1.5k seems to be universal ceiling for some reason. Once they reach it, its not going back to sane values.

    Yes it can be more expensive but still reasonable. Asking 7k gold for a tech that takes 4 turns for me to research is too much. Also I suspect this behavior may discourage AIs from buying from each other.

    A deal must satisfy both sides, otherwise there's no deal - if the price is too high that is a lost opportunity which AIs now don't understand.
    One of the great changes of VP is that trading resources became more reasonable - the AIs offer different prices depending on their needs. For example, Netherlands is often happy to pay insane amounts of gold for lux, as it boosts it's UA. Would be nice to see AIs evaluate techs in the same way. At least there should be more reasonable scaling.
     
  9. wobuffet

    wobuffet Barbarian

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    I never play with Tech Trading on (so I have no idea what's driving the current behavior!), but theoretically yes, would be affected.
     
  10. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    Wait, how are you researching a tech in 4 turns? XD
    That definitely changes the picture lol.
     
  11. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    Easy. Playing tall with science focus would easily make some techs from previous age have cost equivalent to 4 turns of gained science.
     
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  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives Emperor

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    OK. I guess I've never not researched those techs before entering a new era.
     
  13. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    You should try. Three or two days ago I got 2 (!) turns on bronze working with deity tradition standard, after education. That's the reason I find standard speed ridiculous.
     
  14. a3kov

    a3kov Warlord

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    In my current immortal Arabia game I got 1 turn for bronze working after education and theology :)
     
  15. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    You probably should stop delaying Bronze once you get on a current patch, as even if you don't want the Iron AIs will regularly give 3-5 gpt for each 1 (even willingly in groups, not forced down their throats with the bug.) A couple rich iron deposits can easily become 30 gpt.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  16. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    You maybe correct but I feel like having to improve those tiles, which many times are not workable flat mines is not worth delaying other better improvements. Also gold is usually my last concern whenever I play. And I don't play use specific map script, only normal continents and pangeas, which tend to give you 0 or very few iron, even if you go relatively wide. Usually it is city-statee that have 6 iron deposits. The opposite of what they do with coal. I feel like bronze working early is option only when you intend to get iron working immediately after and use that iron and catapults (and it's also usually after mathematics and masonry for me).
     
  17. a3kov

    a3kov Warlord

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    I've tried buying techs for these crazy prices in my current game and I think it can be useful, even if situational. Shaving off precious research time is always nice. Then the important question is where to get all that money...In my current game I was friendly with multiple AIs and I was able to compensate the cost for buying techs from them with selling my own researched techs to multiple AIs. So I was able to buy several techs each worth 12k. I would still prefer the prices to be scaling depending on AI needs though - if they badly need money they need to lower prices to sell more.

    That 1.5k ceiling though is clearly a bug that needs to be fixed.
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I rarely get to buy techs from tech trading, but selling them is another matter. A lot of times I can get bottom rung civs to pay me a lot for the tech....its a way lower price than I would have to pay to get the equivalent tech, but honestly uplifting crap civs at that point in the game is a nonissue for me, and I would rather have the money. Often its even to me benefit if its the neighbor of a rival, I can help them get tech parity to hold off my rival, and get paid all at the same time.
     
  19. CppMaster

    CppMaster Emperor

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    This is exactly why I think is broken and don't like it. You can get a huge benefit from it almost without a downside. It feels very exploitative.
     
  20. stii

    stii King

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    Yeah agree with the last two people, selling to the weakest two AI is just so low cost and they will pay like 75gpt each. There are loads of ways to scam money off the AI, early game lux/strat selling and mid game tech trading. It just utterly devalues money and there any money buildings as a result. I used to build markets because they improved internal routes and now they generate a a merchant I guess? Banks in the same way don't make you money they give you a bonus when you spend the money you got from the AI.
     
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