Tech Tree Revisions

[Vokarya]

Looks good to me. FIY, I'm considering the idea of adding a National Wonder called NORAD or something similar, which requires MAD civic to be built (but stays after you switch out of MAD), which should enable the Nuke Manager Screen and nuke pretargeting feature. But it requires dll coding I think. What do you think?

I actually don't think this is a good idea. I think these features should be tied to techs/civics and not buildings, especially if you want smaller empires to be viable. We already have over 70 National Wonders. Some of them are limited in scope, but you're looking at double-digit numbers of cities to be able to handle them without choking.

This is also a problem I have with the Diplomatic Mission. I don't think it should take a building to unlock it, especially since it seems to be more of a convenience feature than anything else.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I actually don't think this is a good idea. I think these features should be tied to techs/civics and not buildings, especially if you want smaller empires to be viable. We already have over 70 National Wonders. Some of them are limited in scope, but you're looking at double-digit numbers of cities to be able to handle them without choking.

This is also a problem I have with the Diplomatic Mission. I don't think it should take a building to unlock it, especially since it seems to be more of a convenience feature than anything else.

Well, you're right but at least Diplomatic Mission is disabled. It was Afforess idea and I think it will never be completed, at least in the way he was planning. AI doesn't have a clue on how to use it and it breaks multiplayer so I've disabled it.
OK, I'll think something different for Nukes Manager because I'm not sure I like it the way it is, but I can live with it.

 

[Vokarya]

I have figured out how I want to split the tricks that come from mixing together Machine Learning/Unmanned Air Vehicles/Powered Exoskeleton/Automated Traffic/Military Robotics.

Machine Learning (Modern Era)

• Littoral Combat Ship
• Drone Bombers
• Modern Fighter
• Antimissile Battery
• Unmanned Warfare
• Small Diameter Bomb (promotion, minor trick)

Automated Vehicles (Transhuman Era)

• Rover
• Walker Droid
• Power Armored Infantry
• Constructor Ship
• Control Center
• Mech Assembly Plant
• Personal Rapid Train

Other

• Automated Defenses to Artificial Intelligence
• Smart Missile to Cybernetics

These are two low-trick-count techs and I think they could use the help. Smart Missile is the upgrade of the Cruise Missile from the mid-to-late Modern Era (Guided Weapons, Modern-6) and I'd like to give the CM a bit longer life.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I actually don't think this is a good idea. I think these features should be tied to techs/civics and not buildings, especially if you want smaller empires to be viable. We already have over 70 National Wonders. Some of them are limited in scope, but you're looking at double-digit numbers of cities to be able to handle them without choking.

This is also a problem I have with the Diplomatic Mission. I don't think it should take a building to unlock it, especially since it seems to be more of a convenience feature than anything else.

What if I make Nuke Manager screen and pretargeting feature not disappearing when you switch out of MAD? You need MAD in first place to use them but they stay even when you switch out. I'm proposing this because it's a feature with a very narrow use currently. On the other hand, I should make MAD available only to civs that have built First Nuclear Test.

 

[<Nexus>]

What if I make Nuke Manager screen and pretargeting feature not disappearing when you switch out of MAD? You need MAD in first place to use them but they stay even when you switch out. I'm proposing this because it's a feature with a very narrow use currently. On the other hand, I should make MAD available only to civs that have built First Nuclear Test.

So Nuke Manager screen and pretargeting feature would be available with MAD or Norad? Sounds good to me.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

So Nuke Manager screen and pretargeting feature would be available with MAD or Norad? Sounds good to me.

I'm not sure. The problem with Norad is that another National Wonder is not advisable as Vokarya pointed out. I could simply do as I've said: MAD requires First Nuclear Test (I need to code building dependent civics), and its features stay even after you've switched out of MAD.

 

[Vokarya]

What if I make Nuke Manager screen and pretargeting feature not disappearing when you switch out of MAD? You need MAD in first place to use them but they stay even when you switch out. I'm proposing this because it's a feature with a very narrow use currently. On the other hand, I should make MAD available only to civs that have built First Nuclear Test.

Could you make the Nuke Manager work with non-nuclear missiles as well? Then I think there wouldn't be as much need to limit MAD.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Could you make the Nuke Manager work with non-nuclear missiles as well? Then I think there wouldn't be as much need to limit MAD.

Probably, but on what purpose? I don't think pretargeting conventional missiles makes any sense, especially since you only can do it from cities. Or what use do you mean for non nuclear missiles?

 

[Vokarya]

Probably, but on what purpose? I don't think pretargeting conventional missiles makes any sense, especially since you only can do it from cities. Or what use do you mean for non nuclear missiles?

I was just thinking of a way to make MAD useful without having to use nuclear weapons; if you had enough conventional missiles, you could still hurt your enemy. If you would rather keep it straight-nuclear, that's fine.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I was just thinking of a way to make MAD useful without having to use nuclear weapons; if you had enough conventional missiles, you could still hurt your enemy. If you would rather keep it straight-nuclear, that's fine.

I think I prefer to keep it for nukes only. Conventional missiles don't have a significant range for this feature to work.
We could tie Nuke Manager to First Nuclear Test instead of MAD.

 

[Vokarya]

I've been thinking about the last two cuts I want to make to the Modern Era. (I am done with the Transhuman. 45 techs is good enough. It's the largest era, but it's not that much larger than the preceding eras.)

I want to remove exactly 2 techs from the Modern Era and add Synthetic Fibers to make the Modern Era a round 40 techs. There are several techs that I do not think I would add if we were designing the tree from scratch (Recycling, Supersonic Flight, and Nanotechnology as a Modern Era tech -- it would be perfectly fine in the Transhuman Era -- come to mind), but I like the 40 number and the keeping the Modern Era parallel to the Industrial.

The two techs that I have decided are the most expendable are Aquaculture and Biological Warfare.

Aquaculture shares a lot of space with Hydroponics and it's difficult to find anything more to do with them. Food-producing techs also have the trouble of functioning as virtual dead-ends with long stretches before they are necessary to another tech (Agricultural Tools and Crop Rotation exit at Biology; Aquaculture exits at Environmental Engineering; Hydroponics exits at Vertical Farming). So I would cut Aquaculture; give Fish Farm back its +1 food from River tiles and move it up to Vertical Farming; and cut the Can Sanitize Water ability. Sanitizing Water is only useful to remove Infectious Smog and Plague Smog from water tiles and requires an additional tech (Genetic Engineering or Artificial Life), so Aquaculture doesn't mean much.

Biological Warfare is, at the same time, nebulous and narrow. Biological warfare as a concept is quite old, while the tech exhausts itself after one building (Biological Warfare Lab) and some promotions; Secret Army Base could be put at a lot of Modern Era places without being conceptually wrong. I think the thing to do here is move Biological Warfare Lab and the promotions to Antibiotics, and move Secret Army Base to Microprocessor. Microprocessor is one Modern Era tech that has only 2 tricks and this would give it one more.

 

[Arakhor]

Those seem quite reasonable, but it's probably worth pointing out that chlorine gas and the like were deployed in the trenches, some ten years before Sir Alexander Fleming's famous discovery.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Those seem quite reasonable, but it's probably worth pointing out that chlorine gas and the like were deployed in the trenches, some ten years before Sir Alexander Fleming's famous discovery.

True, but technically those were chemical and not biological weapons.

 

[Vokarya]

Those seem quite reasonable, but it's probably worth pointing out that chlorine gas and the like were deployed in the trenches, some ten years before Sir Alexander Fleming's famous discovery.

That is more accurately represented by the Chemical I promotion. It's available at Explosives.

 

[Arakhor]

Fair enough. I bow to your superior wisdom.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

As it stands at the moment, you can reach archery without ever having to build Slingers (weaving).

This leaves slingers with no upgrade path (from the tech tree) or no real need to build them if you start with Stone tools.

Archery only has woodworking and hunting as a prerequisite, it would seem to me, that requiring weaving (Bow strings) as well as woodworking (Bow its self), seems more logical.

Both Ashurbanipal and Bismark (from the alphabetical survey of the 1st 9) both start with hunting and stone tools, so they can build Javelineers immediately, and only need woodworking to get to Archery.

Solution (recommendation) - Change archery to require weaving and hunting as a pre-requisite.

 

[gay_Aleks]

I've noticed something really strange about the research patterns of AI in the Renaissance: for some reason, they all rush for Gunpowder -> Metallurgy. Is that intended?

 

[Vokarya]

As it stands at the moment, you can reach archery without ever having to build Slingers (weaving).

This leaves slingers with no upgrade path (from the tech tree) or no real need to build them if you start with Stone tools.

Archery only has woodworking and hunting as a prerequisite, it would seem to me, that requiring weaving (Bow strings) as well as woodworking (Bow its self), seems more logical.

Both Ashurbanipal and Bismark (from the alphabetical survey of the 1st 9) both start with hunting and stone tools, so they can build Javelineers immediately, and only need woodworking to get to Archery.

Solution (recommendation) - Change archery to require weaving and hunting as a pre-requisite.

I'm not changing it. The Ancient Era is supposed to allow for slightly more flexibility in tech and unit paths.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

well, on the Tech tree, they all seem to go for Caste system, and then immediately adopt Caste + warrior caste.

The net result being -1 zero hammers and -15% gold bonus. They do gain +1 from building a Sacrificial alter, but that's only neutral.

the only bonus I can see, is +2 experience to new units. Big deal early on.

I myself, go for Slavery, the +10% hammers and Gold+, plus losing the -33% from barter of Gold and science,plus ability to build a slave market, and capture workers in combat is superior. Experience smerience, Gold and hammers is where its at.

Of course, a human can't keep up with AI bonuses, allowing them to avoid slavery.

They all do it, "X has adopted Caste, and warrior caste", I get this notification all the time.

 

[Vokarya]

I've noticed something really strange about the research patterns of AI in the Renaissance: for some reason, they all rush for Gunpowder -> Metallurgy. Is that intended?

Some of the military techs have high AI weights and flavors to prevent them from falling behind on the battlefield. Metallurgy doesn't have an AI weight, but Flintlock does. The AI may be rushing to get that.