Tech Tree

[Elda King]

The heroes like Gandalf and Radagast... And perhaps it gives a small bonus, or something. But it also makes more difficult to get the White Council.

 

[bob bobato]

Maybe all 5 wizards (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and two more who never apear who's names I forgot) could be heroes, and the first five civs to research 'wizards' could get one.

 

[Elda King]

At this moment, the idea is that Saruman will be a leader (nothing definitive about leader units), Gandalf and Radagast will be heroes, and the other 2 Great Spies.
A thing to think is that there were other Wizards, but these 5 were most known because they arrived in the part of Middle-Earth were the story is set.

 

[Love]

there where not other wizards than these five, valars choosed them and sent them to ME

 

[Elda King]

There were!
"Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dunedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs was five. The first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and the
last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and greyclad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red." (The Unfinished Tales)

 

[bob bobato]

So there were other wizards... but how are you going to use them? You can't build them, because they were sent by the valar. They could apear in random places, but what would their names be? Make them up, or take them from the net? If you do make them up or take them from the net, then it won't be tolkien's arda, it would be yours, and have little to do with the 'real' Arda. I understand making things up to fill in the gaps, but if you don't have to make things up, you shouldn't.

 

[Elda King]

We really had no intention of putting them in the mod before now... Not even remember them. But one thing you have to put in mind, the top priority is fun, not fidelity to the world. Of course having random wizards would be more adequate to the story, but how would you feel about don't being able to create or use some of the funniest units in the game? If we do put these extra wizards, they would be a national unit called "wizard" that you may build only if you have a rare resource. And, by this kind of reasoning, The Shadow should start the game with some Balrog units, as Balrogs were Maiar and couldn't be created. But the thing is: when you build a unit, you are truly equiping/training/preparing your people to fight, not "creating" people. The Wizards came to the world, and allied themselves with some peoples to fight the evil (at least in the beggining), so you may get the help of one of them. How to put it ingame, simply and balanced? Build them as other units!

 

[bob bobato]

But Middle-Earth isn't balanced. Gondor has nothing to counter the Nazgul with, and Rohan has no Saruman. That was one of the themes of the books, that the Shadow was much stronger than the free people, yet the free peoples still won. To make the free civs equal to the shadow would get rid of the desperation the main characters in LOTR felt. If Tolkien's Middle-Earth were balanced, there would have been no need to destroy the Ring, because they could have just attacked Mordor.

So, my idea is, to make it possible for the 'free peoples' in the mod to win against the shadow, they should have more religious bonuses if they pick a 'good' religion, and maybe, once in a while get powerfull units, such as wizards, or eagles. They basic units should be more powerfull than 'shadow' units, but more expensive, and basic 'shadow' units should be weaker, but cheaper. So there could be large 'shadow' hordes who could overpower the 'good' units, but the 'goo'd civs could have very powerfull units to counter these.

 

[Elda King]

The Shadow is incredibly more powerful than the others - military. They would have to unite to defeat it, thought they certainly could defeat it by strength of arms depending on the game; they may win the game by ways The Shadow can't, and are economicaly/culturaly stronger. But The Shadow has a large number of units with no equivalents for the other civs (Balrogs, Dragons, Trolls) and more heroes. But the "good civs" (they can all turn to evil like the Haradrim/Numenoreans, though Elves are less likely to do so) can build powerful forces, and if the player is far more advanced it could even defeat the Shadow - remember, Ar-Pharazon was stronger than Sauron, and Sauron could only defeat Numenor by treachery, just for one example.

 

[bob bobato]

Makes sense.

 

[T_F]

I like the Shadow units being cheap and weak - generally, the Shadow defeated people by sheer force of numbers, not skill of arms. (Quantity, not quality.)

 

[thomas.berubeg]

i just thought of this. when a civ turns evil, parts of it's military are sent to the shadow as tribute.

 

[T_F]

When it accepts Darkness as its state religion?
Do they get a choice which units?

 

[thomas.berubeg]

When it accepts Darkness as its state religion?
Do they get a choice which units?

i don't think they should get a choice... but it gives a temporary mutual defence pact between the shadow and the civ that is turnign evil. after X turns, when the civ has had time to build up it's military, the mutual defence pact disseapers

what do you think?

 

[T_F]

That's good. Would the Shadow accept any future defense pact offers, or would that be the only one ('You're doing fine on your own')?

 

[bob bobato]

i don't think they should get a choice... but it gives a temporary mutual defence pact between the shadow and the civ that is turnign evil.

Why shouldn't they get a choice? The evil in LOTR tried to convert the 'free peoples'. They asked the dwarves to help in the first book, Rohan might have been sending them horses, and in the last book asked Gondor if it wanted to become vassals to Mordor, though that mgiht be too light a word. Middle-Earth is seperated into Black & White, but that wasn't (isn't, hasn't, or wasn't? So hard with fiction) always clear to the people who lived there. All the civs should have a choice in the mod, including Harad and Rhun, who supported Sauron but were seperate from him.

 

[Elda King]

The choice in this case is about wich units it would send if it converted to the Worship the Darkness; the choice is wether you choose to convert to it or not.
I think it's great, but perhaps it could happen only when you become a vassal of The Shadow, and you would not become automatically a vassal, only the diplomacy bonuses would make it more likely to happen. Numenor, for example, turned to evil, but didn't give units to Sauron.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

I need someone to do the Techs, with the FFH schema

 

[Sifaus]

i can try =)

 

[thomas.berubeg]

thanks.

Use the FFH tech file as a base.