Technology Cost of History

[Enginseer]

Found in Sid Meier's Civilization 5\MODS\(2) Community Balance Overhaul\Balance Changes\Tech\TechCostChanges.sql, should replace the code with the code below.

-- Change Tech Costs (from CEP):

UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =     60*1.05 WHERE GridX =  1; --35
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =     80*1.10 WHERE GridX =  2; --55
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =    125*1.15 WHERE GridX =  3; --105
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =    225*1.20 WHERE GridX =  4; --175
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =    350*1.25 WHERE GridX =  5; --275
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =    550*1.30 WHERE GridX =  6; --485
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   1000*1.35 WHERE GridX =  7; --780
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   1500*1.40 WHERE GridX =  8; --1150
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   2500*1.45 WHERE GridX =  9; --1600
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   3500*1.45 WHERE GridX = 10; --2350
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   5500*1.40 WHERE GridX = 11; --3100
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   6000*1.35 WHERE GridX = 12; --4100
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   6500*1.30 WHERE GridX = 13; --5100
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   7500*1.25 WHERE GridX = 14; --6400
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   8500*1.20 WHERE GridX = 15; --7700
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =   9500*1.15 WHERE GridX = 16; --8800
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =  10000*1.10 WHERE GridX = 17; --9500
UPDATE Technologies SET Cost =  11000*1.05 WHERE GridX = 18; --NEW!

-- Speed Change
UPDATE GameSpeeds SET ResearchPercent = 325 WHERE Type = 'GAMESPEED_MARATHON';
UPDATE GameSpeeds SET ResearchPercent = 225 WHERE Type = 'GAMESPEED_EPIC';

I did a lot of testing and this code seems to work best for those who prefers immersion. Obviously the game takes longer, but takes long enough for each technology to fits into its respective era. (Majority of the AIs will hit Classical Era by 1500 BC or less, Medieval Era by AD 300 or less, etc)

From a gameplay perspective, game definitely last longer in the Medieval-Industrial era as that's where the majority of human history presided. However, as humanity begins to make technological advances faster and quicker than society can keep up, the modifier begins to decrease and technologies become relatively easier to reproduce.

 

[merill]

With increased tech cost, building all buildings in every city isn't too easy?

note: this thread should belong to "general balance" i think.

 

[Enginseer]

Not really, you get your key science buildings before the initial tech cost becomes really significant. The only problem is that AIs who don't prioritize Writing before their 10th technologies are going to be lacking in science(although the barracks and forge could probably supplement the library until then).

Despite that however the code is more in immersion, I think players would prefer if cities were well-developed rather than being "developing" cities.

 

[Moi Magnus]

I think you also need to change culture cost (at least at hight difficulty) : Unlocking Ideologies too early can really break the immersion.
(For buildings, a 110% or 120% cost would probably be a good thing, but not really important)

 

[Infixo]

I have a question regarding Epic and Marathon.
I am quite new to the mod but this allows me to quickly notice odd things. I've just finished an Epic game and noticed that NONE of the AIs was able to research technologies even remotely close to historical realities. I was BARELY able to do that by putting almost all my efforts into science (getting asap all science buildings,working all science specialist, etc.) At that time I couldn't understand how is that possible and it seems that this line of code is responsible:

-- Speed Change
UPDATE GameSpeeds SET ResearchPercent = 225 WHERE Type = 'GAMESPEED_EPIC';

The Epic speed is designed to last 150% of the Standard speed. Why, oh why, there's a 225% modifier applied?
I can understand that little tweaking is ok (like 325% instead of 300% for Marathon) but 225% instead of 150% is too much. It breaks immersion in the other direction - AIs are entering Renaissance Era in 1900's...

Can it be somehow tuned to a more realistic value like e.g. 170%-190% if we feel that normal 150% causes the techs fly too fast.

 

[Enginseer]

I have a question regarding Epic and Marathon.
I am quite new to the mod but this allows me to quickly notice odd things. I've just finished an Epic game and noticed that NONE of the AIs was able to research technologies even remotely close to historical realities. I was BARELY able to do that by putting almost all my efforts into science (getting asap all science buildings,working all science specialist, etc.) At that time I couldn't understand how is that possible and it seems that this line of code is responsible:

-- Speed Change
UPDATE GameSpeeds SET ResearchPercent = 225 WHERE Type = 'GAMESPEED_EPIC';

The Epic speed is designed to last 150% of the Standard speed. Why, oh why, there's a 225% modifier applied?
I can understand that little tweaking is ok (like 325% instead of 300% for Marathon) but 225% instead of 150% is too much. It breaks immersion in the other direction - AIs are entering Renaissance Era in 1900's...

Can it be somehow tuned to a more realistic value like e.g. 170%-190% if we feel that normal 150% causes the techs fly too fast.

Oh that was part of the default session. For Epic I usually moved it to 175 and Marathon to 250

 

[Infixo]

I can change it as well, I know, but can it be part of standard mod?
Btw, what is "default session"?

 

[Enginseer]

I can change it as well, I know, but can it be part of standard mod?
Btw, what is "default session"?

default section of the file*

I usually test these out and play it myself mid-way to see how the technology gap is large between others.

 

[Blue Ghost]

How did you choose these numbers? My experience is that these numbers on standard speed are still too low to approximate historical values. The numbers you give (1500 BC for classical, 300 for medieval) seem quite a bit earlier than the commonly accepted cutoff points for those eras. Of course, it could be partially due to variance. I'll have to do more testing myself to see what numbers are right.

Is there a way to linearly scale up culture costs to match?

 

[Enginseer]

How did you choose these numbers? My experience is that these numbers on standard speed are still too low to approximate historical values. The numbers you give (1500 BC for classical, 300 for medieval) seem quite a bit earlier than the commonly accepted cutoff points for those eras. Of course, it could be partially due to variance. I'll have to do more testing myself to see what numbers are right.

Is there a way to linearly scale up culture costs to match?

This is based on the fact that I disabled policy trees and religion. After that I begin testing with policy tree and then without policy tree, but with religion and vice versa. Then I averaged them into approximately a "historical" value considering that some technologies in their era don't even match up properly, so I marked them on considering that most of the technologies in those era would have been available by then.

Classical: 1500 B.C. (Somewhere by then, most civilizations would have constructed their Ancient World Wonders by now)
Medieval: A.D. 300 (Empires expand and collapses. Wars often happen during these turn intervals.
Renaissance: A.D. 1400 (Ironically enters the right timeline.)
Industrial: A.D. 1700 (More than half the civilizations develops ideologies, perhaps due to a lack of cultural cost increase)
Modern: A.D. 1880s (Civilizations who aren't snowballing begin to use their modern guns and machinery now)
Atomic: A.D. 1940s (Manhattan Project should be constructed on almost every civilization if not banned)
Information: Shouldn't matter at this point, science snowballs so hard. I don't bother keeping track.

 

[Infixo]

I did some analysis on 'research speed vs. historical accuracy' for Civ VI. There's much bigger problem
http://forums.civfanatics.com/threa...-vs-historical-accuracy.609638/#post-14644355

 

[Infixo]

Classical: 1500 B.C. (Somewhere by then, most civilizations would have constructed their Ancient World Wonders by now)
Medieval: A.D. 300 (Empires expand and collapses. Wars often happen during these turn intervals.
Renaissance: A.D. 1400 (Ironically enters the right timeline.)
Industrial: A.D. 1700 (More than half the civilizations develops ideologies, perhaps due to a lack of cultural cost increase)
Modern: A.D. 1880s (Civilizations who aren't snowballing begin to use their modern guns and machinery now)
Atomic: A.D. 1940s (Manhattan Project should be constructed on almost every civilization if not banned)
Information: Shouldn't matter at this point, science snowballs so hard. I don't bother keeping track.

Sorry to bring it up again, but can you pls. tell what values for Epic and Marathon give such results? Is it what you mentioned previously (175 and 250)?
And 2nd question: those tests that give such results - what speed do you use? standard?

 

[Enginseer]

Sorry to bring it up again, but can you pls. tell what values for Epic and Marathon give such results? Is it what you mentioned previously (175 and 250)?
And 2nd question: those tests that give such results - what speed do you use? standard?

Standard, and for Epic and Marathon they might need a smaller tech adjustment such as 210 in Epic and 290 in Marathon since I'm off by the 00s within 10-20 turns. If you're using it for the enlightenment era... well... I don't know too much about that enough.

 

[Infixo]

since I'm off by the 00s within 10-20 turns

sorry, what is off by hundreds?
The scaling works linearly. Epic is designed to be 1.5x, marathon 3.0x. I can understand that someone after testing would like some tweaking, but it should be proportional and in the same direction. E.g. If we extend epic by factor 1.5 then marathon should also,go by 1.5 or even more. And quick divided by 1.5. And now only epic is extended substantially, marathon is more or less around 3.0, quick is unchanged. I simply see no logic in this.

If you're using it for the enlightenment era... well... I don't know too much about that enough.

it's ok, I'm first trying to understand why there's 225 on epic and nobody complains. Maybe people don't pay attention to what year the game is showing?

 

[Enginseer]

sorry, what is off by hundreds?
it's ok, I'm first trying to understand why there's 225 on epic and nobody complains. Maybe people don't pay attention to what year the game is showing?

It's harder to go for research techs when you didn't research The Wheel and Writing in the first place, so Epic and Marathon if scaled properly would be advantageous for civilizations that prioritized techs and techs only. However, with a few scaling percentage off, that advantage becomes less significant as warmongers have more time to reap in their doubled/tripled conquest bonus and progressive civilizations get more time to begin building their infrastructure to significantly snowball much harder.

 

[Infixo]

Ok, Please let me dig a little more on this, if you don't mind.
I understood that since there are differences in first 3 branches in policies regarding science, and those differences can be equalized given some time, that's why science is so much extended?
If so, let's for a moment focus just on tradition and progress. Let's take 2 first eras, they should last aaprox 130 turns on standard and 200 on epic 1.5.
Both branches give science bonus mostly I n capital, in other cities it is much smaller and comparable. If you build more cities, their infrastructure will be the same. So, tradition has +2 sci and 1 scientist, and +1 sci from councils and herbalist, on average this might equal 4-5 sci (you don't get ceremony immediately and must build council and herbalist later). Progress has 30 sci per born citizen. Other cities cancel out - tradition just gives +2 from council&herablist, progress +3 from city connection. In 200 turns I'll get approx. 800-1000 sci from tradition. In progress my city will be around 15-20 pop, so it will give 700-900 sci. Sure, tradition is little better, but these are roughly the same numbers.
I suppose, authority would have to kill like 30+ units to get the same. So, you want to give them more time to achieve that, right?
If so - why not simply make more costly techs in ancient/classical? I suppose this difference must dissipate in time, in what era all branches perform similarly? Assuming that medieval is equal for everyone, then only 2 first eras would need to be longer.
Or other solution: why not give like 35 instead of 30 bonus in progress? And in authority make some science gain tight to buildings like barracks.
Going further: what's the point of having different policies if we then artificially want them to create the same effects?
And last question: what will actually happen if we set this parameter to e.g. 175.

 

[tu_79]

Don't go nuts on this. In XIXc there were civs still in Medieval.

 

[Moi Magnus]

it's ok, I'm first trying to understand why there's 225 on epic and nobody complains. Maybe people don't pay attention to what year the game is showing?

Because 2.25 = 1.5*1.5, and a lot of science production are quadratic instead of linear.

I always play in epic, and even if I almost never look at the year, I do not remember any major inconsistancy between year and era.

 

[Infixo]

Because 2.25 = 1.5*1.5, and a lot of science production are quadratic instead of linear

Well, why is Marathon then not 9.00 since it's 3.0*3.0 but just little over (3.25 instead of 3.0). And as we discussed on github - pls provide an example of quadratic dependency for research?

 

[Jarula]

Do you mean marathon should be 900 percent instead of 325?