Temple of Artemis replacement

[senshidenshi]

Ignore this. It popped up and I didn't check the path.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Everyone here will be willing to help. Don't feel pressured though. Feel free to PM me if you need anything.

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk

 

[senshidenshi]

Everyone here will be willing to help. Don't feel pressured though. Feel free to PM me if you need anything.

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk

Nah, it was more along the lines of "Doesn't Honor use the Statue of Zeus?" I didn't realise it was under Communitas.

 

[ExpiredReign]

Nah, it was more along the lines of "Doesn't Honor use the Statue of Zeus?" I didn't realise it was under Communitas.

Hey Senshidenshi I was actually directing my comment at the previous comment!

Looks kinda weird now I see it in a browser and not my phone, as your comment is at the top of the current page and mine follows. Nevermind.

 

[ExpiredReign]

If we go along the lines of providing some sort of Courthouse type building there may be problems.
I have seen some discussions about unique courthouses not working the same way as expected and conflicting with the code of the vanilla courthouse.
Not saying don't try it, just be prepared for a fight to make it work.

I would like to see some sort of nullifier though.

 

[dylansan]

Considering there seem to be some strange problems with happiness in this release anyway, I'll be happy to avoid it.

I probably won't be able to put much time or effort into this any time soon, but I'll be giving it some thought. I haven't had much experience with CEP so it's hard for me to judge things like balance or scale, especially since I usually play on marathon which emphasizes war, and isn't what the modpack is fine tuned for.

I'll be sure to message you if I get stuck, but I shouldn't hold back the development of the mod. If this is an issue that you think needs addressing soon, someone more qualified should probably provide some sort of placeholder in the meantime. Or perhaps just put the Statue of Zeus back as the Honor opener (still not sold on the singular purpose of giving more great generals).

 

[dylansan]

Well, I managed to make some progress, and created an Abu Simbel wonder which is now unlocked with honor, and gives +15% production to mounted units and a great engineer point.

But I have a few pressing questions:

First, I can't actually be sure that it will work for people who don't have the Ancient Wonders DLC. The code references the Temple of Artemis in order to remove it's Honor requirement, but that should be fine, since code for it is also included in CEP, right?

Second, I noticed that the Temple of Artemis has been changed to give XP to archery units, rather than make them quicker to produce. I'd like to hear some discussion on why this change was made, as I'm not sure if I should make the same change myself. I'm certainly not opposed to it, but since the idea of the wonder is to make it possible to declare war early, being able to get units faster seems like a good idea, perhaps. I have no experience with balancing gameplay or anything so suggestions are welcome.

Thirdly, and most importantly, how the heck am I going to implement the main bonus of this wonder, which gives more gold when pillaging? I was thinking of perhaps making a custom promotion that gets applied to all units, but it seems Firaxis hardcoded most of the promotions in such a way that adding new behaviors is very involved. I haven't even been able to find any code which actually determines how much gold is gained from pillaging, so I have no idea where to start, and no confidence that I could write code that would actually work.

In the meantime I might work on some art for it, but perhaps I shouldn't until I know this is actually possible. Any advice?

 

[ExpiredReign]

Well, I managed to make some progress, and created an Abu Simbel wonder which is now unlocked with honor, and gives +15% production to mounted units and a great engineer point.

But I have a few pressing questions:

First, I can't actually be sure that it will work for people who don't have the Ancient Wonders DLC. The code references the Temple of Artemis in order to remove it's Honor requirement, but that should be fine, since code for it is also included in CEP, right?

Second, I noticed that the Temple of Artemis has been changed to give XP to archery units, rather than make them quicker to produce. I'd like to hear some discussion on why this change was made, as I'm not sure if I should make the same change myself. I'm certainly not opposed to it, but since the idea of the wonder is to make it possible to declare war early, being able to get units faster seems like a good idea, perhaps. I have no experience with balancing gameplay or anything so suggestions are welcome.

Thirdly, and most importantly, how the heck am I going to implement the main bonus of this wonder, which gives more gold when pillaging? I was thinking of perhaps making a custom promotion that gets applied to all units, but it seems Firaxis hardcoded most of the promotions in such a way that adding new behaviors is very involved. I haven't even been able to find any code which actually determines how much gold is gained from pillaging, so I have no idea where to start, and no confidence that I could write code that would actually work.

In the meantime I might work on some art for it, but perhaps I shouldn't until I know this is actually possible. Any advice?

Let's look at the first point.
You needn't worry about how the code references the ToA.
If this wonder serves our purpose, and with your permission, we can just remove all references to the ToA and set this as the Wonder unlock.

Second point.
What ever you like, it is your design at the moment. Afterward the forum discussions can tear strips off your ideas and leave a bleeding mess on the floor.
Seriously though, don't worry about what the ToA had, this can be a brand new beast.
The Buildings table does have an unused column called MilitaryProductionModifier. That may be a way of speeding up production. I have not used it and I don't know if it works or not. There is a similar column in the Policies table that does what you are after. Total War gives 25% bonus to production.

Third point.
hmm...
I think you may have bitten off more than you can chew with that one.
You're right, at the moment there doesn't appear to be any suitable piece of code that you can re-use to provide this benefit. Not in Traits, Promotions Unitsor Buildings. How weird! The one area of pillaging that isn't in the code is the amount of gold you get, except of course what is defined in the Improvents table.
I guess lua code might be able to provide something like what you are after but since we are already bogged down with bugfixing unfamiliar lua code, providing more might not be the best thing. Shame.
There is always what I do when the ideas I want can't be done, change them.

At any rate, what ever you want to do, do. There is no rush from our end. I only raised this point after being reminded of it by a user without the DLC. It is not a priority just a task that should be done.

 

[Ahriman]

If this wonder serves our purpose

IMO, it doesn't. A wonder that only unlocks with a specific policy branch and main effect is to increase production of a narrow unit type (which an Honor user might not even have access to) is just to narrow an effect.

I appreciate the coding work that people are doing, but I think it's important to get the design right rather than go ahead with whatever can be coded.

What is wrong with having the unit doubling effect as an Honor wonder?

 

[dylansan]

IMO, it doesn't. A wonder that only unlocks with a specific policy branch and main effect is to increase production of a narrow unit type (which an Honor user might not even have access to) is just to narrow an effect.

I appreciate the coding work that people are doing, but I think it's important to get the design right rather than go ahead with whatever can be coded.

What is wrong with having the unit doubling effect as an Honor wonder?

Giving horse units is not the main effect, the main effect is bonus gold from pillaging.

However, I've had an idea you may be happy with. Instead of giving bonus production or XP to mounted units, what if it simply gave two free chariot archers, which didn't require horses? I'm not sure if this is possible, but it would make the wonder useful for any player, instead of those with horses nearby.

Duplicating your army is not a bad idea, but I find that it would be pretty useless for such an early wonder, when you're likely to have only a few units anyway. Such a wonder should be classical era at least, I would say.



Also, like I said, I'm not doing this for the sake of definitely putting it in the mod. I had the idea and I wanted to try it because it sounded fun. If it doesn't suit the mod's needs, I might still use it on my own, or put the mod up for download, but it doesn't have to be a part of this mod unless it's agreed that it fits.

 

[Spheniscine]

What exactly does the Temple of Artemis do in Communitas? I would've thought doubling your army with Statue of Zeus seemed like an OK wonder to unlock. Or if need be we could just swap their abilities around?

 

[Gokudo01]

What exactly does the Temple of Artemis do in Communitas? I would've thought doubling your army with Statue of Zeus seemed like an OK wonder to unlock. Or if need be we could just swap their abilities around?

10% food in your cities, bonus production and free experience for archers and mounted archers

 

[Spheniscine]

That's a pretty good power, and I suppose swapping won't make much flavor sense. How about instead check for whether the DLC is enabled, and:
- if Wonders of the Ancient World DLC is enabled, Temple of Artemis is the unlock.
- else Statue of Zeus is.

 

[ExpiredReign]

That's a pretty good power, and I suppose swapping won't make much flavor sense. How about instead check for whether the DLC is enabled, and:
- if Wonders of the Ancient World DLC is enabled, Temple of Artemis is the unlock.
- else Statue of Zeus is.

You catch on quick, sometimes the simplest solutions are the best.

Although as you have noticed, this mod doesn't always take the simplest path.

I will however just put in place the quick fix solution, for now. I would still like to see a new wonder(s) designed to add some flair to this mod.

 

[Ahriman]

Doubling military units really seems more flavorful for the terracotta wonder than for the statue of Zeus: China had pretty huge armies.
I don't see any links to the ancient Hellenic world for that effect, these were quality rather than quantity armies.

The food and archer effect is also incredibly boring, and weird in terms of gameplay and flavor effects.
Yes, Artemis is a huntress goddess, but archers and mounted archers weren't a strength of hellenic militaries, hunting isn't a major food source for urban civilizations, and archers favor a defensive playstyle more than an Honor offensive one.

I suggest that:
a) Statue of Zeus or Terracotta army be the unlock for Honor. Just leave Temple of Artemis as a random weak wonder that many players will never see (lacking the DLC).
b) if Terracotta army is unlock, give it the army doubling effect. If statue of zeus is the unlock, give it an effect that actually helps with the problems with Honor-based strategies, like we talked about early in this thread. [Lack of courthouses for example). Honor is about early conquest: can we have a wonder that gives a free courthouse in cities, but then becomes obsolete in the Renaissance era? So it doesn't block out the Iron Curtain ideology or help you forever./

My only concern about the army-doubling is that making it Honor-specific means it can be delayed longer as many civs won't get honor (and won't have high wonder-building) and the longer it is delayed the more powerful it can be (because you have a bigger/more modern army).

 

[Gokudo01]

Doubling military units really seems more flavorful for the terracotta wonder than for the statue of Zeus: China had pretty huge armies.
I don't see any links to the ancient Hellenic world for that effect, these were quality rather than quantity armies.

The food and archer effect is also incredibly boring, and weird in terms of gameplay and flavor effects.
Yes, Artemis is a huntress goddess, but archers and mounted archers weren't a strength of hellenic militaries, hunting isn't a major food source for urban civilizations, and archers favor a defensive playstyle more than an Honor offensive one.

I suggest that:
a) Statue of Zeus or Terracotta army be the unlock for Honor. Just leave Temple of Artemis as a random weak wonder that many players will never see (lacking the DLC).
b) if Terracotta army is unlock, give it the army doubling effect. If statue of zeus is the unlock, give it an effect that actually helps with the problems with Honor-based strategies, like we talked about early in this thread. [Lack of courthouses for example). Honor is about early conquest: can we have a wonder that gives a free courthouse in cities, but then becomes obsolete in the Renaissance era? So it doesn't block out the Iron Curtain ideology or help you forever./

My only concern about the army-doubling is that making it Honor-specific means it can be delayed longer as many civs won't get honor (and won't have high wonder-building) and the longer it is delayed the more powerful it can be (because you have a bigger/more modern army).

pal, i like these ideas but i dont think you can solve honor issues with a wonder.

I'm trying to create my own honor policy( self-use maybe one day, on my workshop on steam who knows ) for communitas and i noticed many issues :

1 - because you( yes, you mod-devs) nerfed damages from archers on building, it's really hard to not lose any units in early warfare even with honor bonus.

2 - it brings me to this second issue. Honor doesn't have the tool to sustain wars. You have no bonus in row production. When you lose units, it's hard to replace them.

3 - you don't have the resources to maintain an early army. The gold from spoill of war aren't enough to cover your maintenance cost ( building + army)
You can't trade with your neighbour because you are attacking them and you can't count early on village ( not enough population, gold from village are laughable )

4 - you don't have early enough happiness to be able to carry on conquest, after one or two cities, you are short in happiness.

5 - because your science is so poor, you dont have the big town from tradition nor many citizens from liberty, your science income is abyssal.
If you don't conquest really fast , you find yourself out-tech.

to summarize, you fail once you are behind in every aspect on the game.

6 - the last issue is : how to give solutions without sky-rocketing endgame happiness and how to give advantage to honor while leaving it some weakness.

 

[Hreat]

If we like the ToA being the unlock and want to solve the problem of some people not having that DLC, why not invent a ToA clone and remove the ToA, effectively giving ToA to people who don't have that DLC?

 

[ExpiredReign]

If we like the ToA being the unlock and want to solve the problem of some people not having that DLC, why not invent a ToA clone and remove the ToA, effectively giving ToA to people who don't have that DLC?

I'm not sure if you're having a laugh or not.

 

[Ahriman]

but i dont think you can solve honor issues with a wonder.

I agree. But the purpose of this thread isn't to solve Honor issues, it is to address the Wonder unlocked by Honor.

it's really hard to not lose any units in early warfare even with honor bonus.

Good. It shouldn't be easy to fight wars without losing any units.

. Honor doesn't have the tool to sustain wars. You have no bonus in row production. When you lose units, it's hard to replace them.

I agree that a production bonus when constructing military units should be a feature in the Honor tree. Previous versions of the mod had this.

you don't have the resources to maintain an early army. The gold from spoill of war aren't enough to cover your maintenance cost ( building + army)

Pillaging generates a lot of gold in the early game, as IIRC it isn't era linked at all. But it *should* be tough to maintain an early army, maintenance costs are what stop military power from spinning out of control.

because your science is so poor, you dont have the big town from tradition nor many citizens from liberty, your science income is abyssal.
If you don't conquest really fast , you find yourself out-tech.

I don't see this as a problem. Going big military early is a strategy with risks and rewards. If you pull it off, it should be rewarding (and part of the problem is that it isn't rewarding enough, because of how bad puppets are and how hard it is to get courthouses early).
But if you don't pull it off, you should be out-teched.

Other strategies should have risks and rewards too: focus too much on expansion and you might over-extend and get conquered. Focus too much on tall/wonder/infrastructure building and you might get hemmed in by expansionist neighbors. Those have serious consequences too.

A big part of the difficulty of balancing Honor and military is that what matters is relative power, not absolute, and conquering your neighbor not only strengthens you but it weakens your rivals. Knocking out an enemy (or severely hindering their economy by capturing a key city or two) early on can give you breathing space for later development. So it's very easy to devolve into situtations where military power is unambiguously the best strategy to do, every game. Many previous versions of civ were like that.

 

[Gokudo01]

I agree. But the purpose of this thread isn't to solve Honor issues, it is to address the Wonder unlocked by Honor.

ok i will react in 3.16 feedback.