Temple of Artemis??

[Lyonesse]

Maybe this is somewhere else but I couldn't find it...sorry if its a repeat.

Okay, playing my first game on Conquest (regular game). I guess I got a bit too excited and just jumped right in LOL

Anyway, I got Polytheism and therefore could build the ToA and thought "COOL! gives me a temple in ever city! [dance] How awesome is that!?!?!?" Build it..and continue play...research Education and BAM! All temples created by ToA are gone! And yet again on the city "build" list. (enter panic mode)

I did know that it was going to go obsolete but didn't figure all the temples would disappear (maybe I was just assuming to much)

Is it me or is this bizarre? Here I was thinking that I was good to go by not having to build temples anymore. So there I was....stuck with some cities only having a library to make them happy (and most were not very happy with that LOL) So off I went back tracking to build temples. I don't know, it just doesn't make sense to me. I realize that it adds the "tourism bonus" but...

(a) is it really worth building?
(b) why not make it so that only cities built after the ToA is rendered obsolete have to build temples? I just don't think it makes sense to have temple's just "disappear" from the city because ToA has gone obsolete...
(c) if this can be rendered obsolete, then why isn't the Pyramid...then have all graneries disappear that weren't actually built...after all the Pyramid is just tourism now (real life).

Hope this makes sense....I was just really ticked off that I had to go back and build something that just "disappeared" into thin air.

 

[Bamspeedy]

And what do you think happens to your free barracks and free granaries if someone captures Sun Tzu's or Pyramids from you?

You only get the free stuff while you own it, and while the wonder 'works' (isn't obsolete).

 

[Lord Apolon]

It's still a pretty brutal effect. Quite a tradeoff for the early culture boost... I haven't built it yet in an Epic Game (as I haven't played an Epic Game yet; focusing on the Conquests) but it could be very useful sometimes, even if it does expire...

The culture remains intact, right?

 

[rabies]

NOT having it obsolete and removing temples would be way too powerful in the game imho.

 

[cgannon64]

Think of it this way - it gives you a free culture upgrade for every city up until Education.

Is that a BAD thing? (Oh, and its perfect for warmongers.)

 

[Pyrkaige]

Originally posted by Lord Apolon
It's still a pretty brutal effect. Quite a tradeoff for the early culture boost... I haven't built it yet in an Epic Game (as I haven't played an Epic Game yet; focusing on the Conquests) but it could be very useful sometimes, even if it does expire...

The culture remains intact, right?

The culture that has been obtained within a city stays there; you can never lose culture that your improvements have created. You won't accrue any more culture if you don't have any other culture producing improvements once the temple disappears, of course. You can see this yourself just by selling off your culture producing improvements in any city; it will keep what you've made so far, but no more will be generated.

 

[StabbingNirvana]

it is a bad thing because afterwards when it goes obsolete youll be running around in complete turmoil until you micromanage each city so that the majority of happy people are more then sad people. so yea, id be rather mad if my temples disappeared

 

[mdm]

So does the culture leave with it?

It would be a horrible wonder then... would devastate the whole double culture for 1000 years old thing quite a bit..

 

[Lyonesse]

exactly what I was doing StabbingNirvana I was running around trying to keep everyone happy until I could add temples back to the cities that didn't have them prior to ToA.
I don't mind that it goes obsolete...I'm not even saying it shouldn't, I'm just saying...why the Heck remove all the temples it created? Why not leave the temples it had created, and from the time it goes obsolete on, any new city would have to actually build a temple.
I guess I just can't handle a "building" disappearing because a "Wonder" has turned into a "Tourist attraction".
And like I said before. If this one can go obsolete, and remove temples, then the pyramids should, at some point, go obsolete and remove graieries....I mean the pyramids are NOW tourist attractions! I wouldn't like that any better, but just seems wierd that one Wonder stay's just as it was and functions in the same manner as it did in Ancient times and the other does not.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I suggested that the pyramids should expire just before you get hospitals

 

[rabies]

Pyramids are overpowered imo as well. Bamspeedy's suggestion is a fine one.
Not having artemis expire would be just as bad or worse. Two wrongs don't make right.
Besides, when the Great Wall expires now, you lose all your walls (I think)...so this would not be the first wonder where you lose structures when it expires.

 

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by Lyonesse
...why the Heck remove all the temples it created? Why not leave the temples it had created, and from the time it goes obsolete on, any new city would have to actually build a temple.
I guess I just can't handle a "building" disappearing because a "Wonder" has turned into a "Tourist attraction".

The 'temples' all disappear because they never really existed. The Temple of Artemis creates the effect of temples in each city - think of it as all of your citizens who would be praying at local temples instead go to the Temple of Artemis. Thus when the worship of artemis is rendered 'obsolete', these people have no-where else to go.

 

[Lyonesse]

I have no problem with it going obsolete. The problem I have is that it effectively "destroys" already standing buildings. Okay, so it won't "give" me anymore "free" temples....fine, but take away the ones you've already "built" (okay, given me)? And send my cities into civil disorder because of it?

As for the Great Wall...and the city walls it gives you....I've never been a big fan of it and I very RARELY actually build the GW or city walls for that matter, once a city is big enough you don't need the walls anyway. And 9 times out of 10 I find that by the time I would be ready to actually build city walls, the city is already big enough it doesn't need them.

I guess we could maybe compare it to The Internet...and say okay lets make it obsolete after future tech 1, it becomes a tourist attraction (so still have SOME culture points) BUT it destroys all the research labs it made...thus slowing your science rate.

I dunno maybe I'm just "not getting it" <shrug>

 

[Pyrkaige]

Originally posted by Lyonesse
I don't mind that it goes obsolete...I'm not even saying it shouldn't, I'm just saying...why the Heck remove all the temples it created? Why not leave the temples it had created, and from the time it goes obsolete on, any new city would have to actually build a temple.

Here's an explanation of the way this type of wonder works that might make it a bit less confusing. Once the wonder is built, every turn you get a certain improvement placed in your cities for that turn. If you already have that improvement (in this case, a temple) in a city, the wonder essentially overrides it so that you don't have to pay upkeep on the improvement in that city. And since the improvement exists in that city for that turn, you of course can't go building another one while the wonder is effective.

However, once the wonder becomes obsolete, it stops providing the free improvements each turn. So any temples you had previously will show up again and cost money to maintain, and all those cities that didn't have temples originally are without them again. The wonder never actually builds a temple in any of your cities; it just gives the benefit of having temples everywhere as long as it is active. And yes, if the Pyramids became obsolete in the standard game, all those granaries would be gone as well.

Also, the culture that the free temples provided does not disappear. You simply won't get any more culture for free since you no longer have the temples.

As an aside, I find it amusing that people are so shocked about this new wonder, simply because it provides an improvement that happens to create culture and then goes obsolete. Play the DyP mod with PTW, and you'd be used to this sort of thing happening on a regular basis with some of the many wonders in that mod that work the same way.

 

[rabies]

I can certainly understand your aggravation over it. It is a pretty controversial wonder. I have not built it myself in a game yet...but I can see how it would kinda suck. But at the same time, if it did NOT expire and worked how you wanted it to (temples it gave you stays), I would be more aggravated because it would be too powerful.

 

[Kute]

Hum... I bet you didn't read the description of the ToA... I don't have the game yet, but i know from www.civ3.com that the temples vanished like that. Find the new wonder page on the official site and you will see a big warning about this.

Not to sound pricky, but analytic reading is required the first time you play a game like civ, civ3 is not civ2 and conquest is not civ3. This is no wonder, by building it you signed your devil deal. Did you ever trade iron to Persia, oil to Germany?

 

[Grey Fox]

One thing that would remedy this somewhat, would be if we could actually BUILD temples while we had this wonder.

Then we could atleast prepare for the upcomming "obsoleteness".

 

[Kute]

from http://www.civ3.com/devupdate_newwonders.cfm

The Temple of Artemis
Required Tech : Polytheism
Cost : 500 Shields
Obsolete : Education
Effect : Places a temple in every city the owner controls on the same continent.
The Temple of Artemis is one of the most expensive Ancient Era Wonders in the game, and with good reason. The massive early culture boost that it provides is arguably just as effective as a stack of Gallic Swordsman. Combine this cultural benefit with a the attributes of a Religious Civilization, switch to Monarchy (for an increased chance to convert your Despotic neighbors) and you have one passive-aggressive, cultural-converting juggernaut. For an additional boost pick up The Oracle, but remember: once Education appears your towns will become much more "rowdy."

 

[Sparrowhawk]

Originally posted by Grey Fox
One thing that would remedy this somewhat, would be if we could actually BUILD temples while we had this wonder.

Then we could atleast prepare for the upcomming "obsoleteness".

If I had to guess at a reason why we can't, it's because worship of artemis has become the religion of the state, and belief in other religions (thus other temples) is banned.

 

[robcheng]

Originally posted by Grey Fox
One thing that would remedy this somewhat, would be if we could actually BUILD temples while we had this wonder.

Then we could atleast prepare for the upcomming "obsoleteness".

I agree that would be nice, although I'm pretty sure implementing it would be too complicated to be worth it.

I agree with BamSpeedy about the pyramids expiring, btw (although at that late stage, you've probably won anyway...)