Temples

[Olleus]

Are they worth it?

I generally build them once I reach opera houses for two reasons:

1) They cost a lot in maintenance and are less efficient at giving culture than monuments.

2) Lots of early culture can be a bad thing. Let me explain this. Generally I'm going to fill out 1 of the first 3 trees (depending on strategy) and then either rationalism or freedom. As I never save policies, getting too much early culture would force me to pick sub optimal policies that will drive up the cost of later policies massively. Only occasionally when I go down Patronage/Piety is this not the case (I have yet to find a use for commerce). I very rarely find that I have to pop my borders fast, and will buy a tile when I really need to.

3) When I reach opera houses (more efficient at giving culture than temples) I am in the renaissance so lots of good policies are available. I generally go for rationalism + 1 of the last 3 trees so need lots of culture to get the juicy policies at this stage so build temples and then operas in quick succession. The only problem is the damn expensive cost of those operas.


Am I plain silly for doing this?

 

[basta]

If you're taking Liberty first and counting on using the GP finisher (choosing a GE) to rush Hagia Sophia>Porcelain Tower, you pretty much need a monument as first build in all your cities and an early temple or 2 to boot to ensure you finish the tree in time so that HS is still available.

Otherwise I'm in general agreement but gold doesn't really figure into my calculations--you can always scrape it up somewhere, somehow; my early builds are always a scramble to ramp up production and temples are low on the list.

 

[Silverfuturist]

Are they worth it?

I generally build them once I reach opera houses for two reasons:

1) They cost a lot in maintenance and are less efficient at giving culture than monuments.

2) Lots of early culture can be a bad thing. Let me explain this. Generally I'm going to fill out 1 of the first 3 trees (depending on strategy) and then either rationalism or freedom. As I never save policies, getting too much early culture would force me to pick sub optimal policies that will drive up the cost of later policies massively. Only occasionally when I go down Patronage/Piety is this not the case (I have yet to find a use for commerce). I very rarely find that I have to pop my borders fast, and will buy a tile when I really need to.

3) When I reach opera houses (more efficient at giving culture than temples) I am in the renaissance so lots of good policies are available. I generally go for rationalism + 1 of the last 3 trees so need lots of culture to get the juicy policies at this stage so build temples and then operas in quick succession. The only problem is the damn expensive cost of those operas.


Am I plain silly for doing this?

I don't know if the plan is different for each level, I only play SP on Deity and win unless something unusual happens in the first 60 moves or so, such as playing with insane settings that require several attempts. You are probably tired of "braggarts" in Civ, my intent isn't to be a braggart but if you sneer at me I won't take offense.

A rough template that I have been using:
Open Tradition
Get free dudes from Liberty
Finish Tradition for growth bonus
Keep working Liberty until Renaissance, maybe finish if France
Open Freedom
Fill out Rationalism
Finish Liberty
Pick more Freedom if game isn't won yet.

 

[Olleus]

I should probably say that I win consistently on emperor and most of the time on immortal, and with a range of settings.

I find that I never really have much problem finishing the first SP tree quickly enough to not really need temples. If I go tradition and tall then the +3 from the opener and having few cities is generally enough. For honour then barb killing is a massive boost. From liberty I make sure to make monuments my first or second build for each city and that seems enough to finish the tree in reasonable time. I'll often also have a wonder or two which gives me some culture (try and get stonehenge - the AI seems to never build it...), or become friends with a culture CS through barb/camp killing.
So if I did decide to use temples to finish the first tree faster, because temples are reasonably expensive to build and are low priority, by the time they come up its virtually too late to be of any use.


Silverfuturist, I'm not really sure what that has to do with temples, can you explain?

 

[Silverfuturist]

I should probably say that I win consistently on emperor and most of the time on immortal, and with a range of settings.

I find that I never really have much problem finishing the first SP tree quickly enough to not really need temples. If I go tradition and tall then the +3 from the opener and having few cities is generally enough. For honour then barb killing is a massive boost. From liberty I make sure to make monuments my first or second build for each city and that seems enough to finish the tree in reasonable time. I'll often also have a wonder or two which gives me some culture (try and get stonehenge - the AI seems to never build it...), or become friends with a culture CS through barb/camp killing.
So if I did decide to use temples to finish the first tree faster, because temples are reasonably expensive to build and are low priority, by the time they come up its virtually too late to be of any use.


Silverfuturist, I'm not really sure what that has to do with temples, can you explain?

Sure, what I was getting at but didn't fully explain is that because I am going to fill out both Tradition and Liberty, I want all the culture I can get as soon as I can get it. So temples are great, but I like to have momuments built first before I use the Legalism policy in tradition to get my free culture buildings.

The cost for Temples early is a lot, but I usually have a few puppets early which get me the gold I need, especially with trade routes.

 

[lilnev]

Temples are pretty bad. I don't remember how long it's been since I built a generic temple (non-UB). Compare the initial investment and maintenance costs of multiple temples to the costs of a cultural CS -- and the CS gives a luxury, strategics, beakers under Patronage, and distracts or buffers your enemies in wartime. The temple gives culture in a particular city, resulting in border pops, but those tiles can be bought if they're really important; it's not worth it for the over-priced low-output building.

 

[Rpger29]

I don't build more than one plain temple anymore unless I'm flush with cash. I build all the unique variants though.

 

[MadDjinn]

once you know you're going to hit Renaissance with your next SP, then you should be pumping temples everywhere.

you'll need the culture to push through Rationalism/Freedom quickly enough to have those early policies matter. You can go Opera Houses after that, but it tends not to be needed.

 

[chando]

I don't build temples unless they are unique (Egypt/Songhai) or I'm going for a culture win.

Won a science game as babylon on deity last game with about 8 cities, all settled, and no puppets or conquesting anything. Hold off some invasions but could menage diplomacy to not get attacked very much (got DoW quite a few times and was at war with ottomans for most of the game, but they could really reach me unless they embarqued to my peninsula and i would crush then as soon as they desembarqued)

Almost finishing a conquest daity game with Isabella, even with no oil until a kicked a huge german butt. only three civs left, should finish next session.
Both games with not a single temple build(unless some pupted builded on Spain game, but since i have no peity and have right side honour, they priorize gold and defensive buildings, especially while at war it seems).

I find that i alwyas have something better to build in most my cities, and after a certain point it really doesnt pay off to waste build time and 2gpt to get +3 culture when you are getting 102 culture or so from city states.
If they provided more benefits without needing peity maybe i would.
Since they are supposed to be better than monuments, maybe they should be 1gpt maintance for 3 culture, with a cheaper hammer cost, or be 2gpt but have either 4 culture or +1 happy (making askia/egypt better as it would stack with their boosts) but i think the basic tample being 1gold maintance for 3 culture would be more balanced.

 

[Rpger29]

2 gold for 3 culture at the hammer cost is a bit much. They really should look at making a very small change of some sort. I think perhaps just decreasing the hammer cost by 15-25% would be enough of a tweak.

 

[Olleus]

Just as I thought, a bit of a niche building. I guess its worth with piety, but otherwise I'll just continue passing on them. I hardly ever find that piety is worth sacrificing rationalism for.

I think that either chando's or Rpger29's suggestion would work, although maybe piety should be reworked slightly then to not make temples quite so good.

And, welcome to the forums Chando!

 

[chando]

Just as I thought, a bit of a niche building. I guess its worth with piety, but otherwise I'll just continue passing on them. I hardly ever find that piety is worth sacrificing rationalism for.

I think that either chando's or Rpger29's suggestion would work, although maybe piety should be reworked slightly then to not make temples quite so good.

And, welcome to the forums Chando!

Thanks! been lurking the foruns and playing ciV for about three months now, just started taking on deity thanks to the forums and the LP videos from everyone.
Very nice community here

 

[trueblue]

theres plenty of space for temples in plenty games...

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

My issue is usually finding the time to actually build the Temples when they become available. While the maintenance isn't a big turn off for me, it certainly doesn't make it any easier to choose building a temple over another building until much later. However going down the Piety policy tree makes them very worthwhile.

While it might be true that Rationalism is better than Piety for anything but a Cultural win.. seems somewhat boring to do the same Policy trees every game (Liberty>Rationalism). I guess I roleplay a little when it comes to my Civs; for example I always go Tradition>Piety with Spain, which is one of my favorite Civs.

 

[Liegence]

I find I have a very simple rule when it comes to Temples:

Am I going to go piety? If not, they're not a priority, and they can wait... I may build one in a city for lack of a better option.

Obviously this is different for the unique variants.

 

[Silverfuturist]

once you know you're going to hit Renaissance with your next SP, then you should be pumping temples everywhere.

you'll need the culture to push through Rationalism/Freedom quickly enough to have those early policies matter. You can go Opera Houses after that, but it tends not to be needed.

This.

Against humans I might go Opera Houses and Hermitage to blow through Rationalism. Being the first person to get nukes is... so nice.

 

[Silverfuturist]

My issue is usually finding the time to actually build the Temples when they become available. While the maintenance isn't a big turn off for me, it certainly doesn't make it any easier to choose building a temple over another building until much later. However going down the Piety policy tree makes them very worthwhile.

While it might be true that Rationalism is better than Piety for anything but a Cultural win.. seems somewhat boring to do the same Policy trees every game (Liberty>Rationalism). I guess I roleplay a little when it comes to my Civs; for example I always go Tradition>Piety with Spain, which is one of my favorite Civs.

I rarely build temples, I time Legalism so that I get the free temples after my monuments are built. Unless I am Siam, then I build the temples (or buy) them first so I get free Wats with Legalism.

 

[tommynt]

the overall right answer is: it depends, depends mainly on your choosen winning type.

Temples are pretty bad. I don't remember how long it's been since I built a generic temple (non-UB). Compare the initial investment and maintenance costs of multiple temples to the costs of a cultural CS -- and the CS gives a luxury, strategics, beakers under Patronage, and distracts or buffers your enemies in wartime. The temple gives culture in a particular city, resulting in border pops, but those tiles can be bought if they're really important; it's not worth it for the over-priced low-output building.

this is very true imo.

Whats just WRONG is the idea that u better not "waste" sp to have cheaper ren era ones.
Usually there is allways a good sp to pick, so its imo very unlickly that delaying sp on purpose is a good idea IN GENERAL

so if you think Museums are good - just get dem Temples - but as said - i d rather get a CS before that if available