1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Term 1 Censor's Office - Proposed Procedures for Official Polling

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game: Citizens' started by Octavian X, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,428
    Location:
    deceiving people with images
    The office of the Censor, as decreed by Section 1.B.IIIB.1, is in charge of creating the rules for and validating official polls. Official polls, as defined by the current Constitution, carry a great deal of weight as an initiative or referendum of the citizenry.

    To that end, I am proposing the following procedures for review before I officially adopt them. This is a new office, so I do need some time to work out the kinks. I'm thinking that these are something like the judicial procedures that the judiciary applies for itself, so guided my thoughts while writing.

    Another note - I'm standing on the shoulders of giants here. A lot of the official polling stuff is derived from the excellent work of the old Polling Standards Commissions. Thanks guys.;)


    Changes
    - reworded poll requirements as suggested by DaveShack
    - made some numbering changes
    - reworded some of the Section B stuff on recalls.
    Comments and questions are expected and welcomed. I tried to cover everything that was relevant to this office - I especially would appreciate it if someone would point out any oversights I might have made.
     
  2. RoboPig

    RoboPig Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    may i suggest that section A1A be changed to 48 hours for binding polls and 24 for non binding (if there are any non-binding) since that allows you to chip in if you are away that day and that is quite important for binding poll. a non binding poll would only be opinion, so it should stay at a 24 hour discussion before becoming a poll. the same time change should be in section A1G

    also all polls, not just recall polls should be private
     
  3. RegentMan

    RegentMan Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Messages:
    6,951
    Location:
    Washington State
    This topic has been beaten to death. Most polls will be public for different reasons, one of the most important reasons is to make sure that only registered users vote in the polls.

    The procedures look fine, but with some of the votes discounted in the elections, would that change the quorum number?
     
  4. RoboPig

    RoboPig Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    no, now we have a demogame members group, so all p[olls can be private.

    also, the censor election was not manipulated. so 9 should be the number
     
  5. Ginger_Ale

    Ginger_Ale Lurker Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2004
    Messages:
    8,802
    Location:
    Red Sox Nation
    Sure, they can be. Heck, we can have no polls. We can have public polls. We can have one person make decisions. We can even have no discussion. We can keep talking in hypotheticals like this.

    Why change if it works? It doesn't do any harm, and it makes things easier on us. Plus, it allows US to check who voted in a poll. Only Thunderfall can check private polls. I seriously doubt he has the need or inclination to view the results of all DG polls. Let's keep them public.
     
  6. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    We're supposed to be kinda like the assembly members for the "real" civ we're playing, right? In the US at least, congressional votes are part of the public record, and you can look at each Representative and Senator's voting record. The DG should be the same way, with public polls.

    I don't like the idea of complicated procedures at all. Too much complexity has the danger that a perfectly good decision will be overturned on a technicality. We'll see the losing side of each and every poll examining it under a microscope to find ways to stop the decision from being carried out.
     
  7. RoboPig

    RoboPig Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2004
    Messages:
    2,640
    how about we set up a poll to determine whether all polls should be private or public? i'll contact octavian
    EDIT: THe censor has been contacted. now we wait
     
  8. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,428
    Location:
    deceiving people with images
    Public/Private votes - I'm working with precedent that was set back when we first got the option to hold public votes. I haven't heard enough outcry for something we've been doing frequently even in this game to justify a change in procedure.

    And, DaveShack, I know it does look complicated, but it's not something I'm worrying about. It boils down to clear questions and answers, 24 hours discussion and polling, a public vote, and a minimum of nine votes. My plan was to create an 'Official Polling' thread in the polls forum that would include a tracking of all validated official polls, and a simple, plain-English guilde to the requirements (along with a link to AJ's guide).
     
  9. Blkbird

    Blkbird Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    860
    A.1.j: "The poll must be public [...]"

    This would offending our Code of Laws in case the poll affects one or several citizens personally.

    CoL 3.A.II.D: "Official polls should be marked Public unless directly concerning another Citizen."
     
  10. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,428
    Location:
    deceiving people with images
    I'm assuming only impeachment/recall votes would personally affect other citizens - I cannot think of any other type of poll which would deal with individual citizens. Thus, section B (which, in retrospect, should be numbered: "Votes in a recall poll must be private..."
     
  11. Blkbird

    Blkbird Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    860
    That's a very bad practice, assuming something doesn't exist just because you can't think of any.

    For instance, there might be a poll like "Shall we charge XYZ with the job of doing a musical performing of our national anthem (because he's got an own band)?" That would be a poll directly affecting citizen XYZ, wouldn't it?
     
  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    OK then how about this:
    • The question and answers must be stated clearly and fairly.
    • Discussion must be open for 24 hours before posting a poll
    • The minimum duration of a poll is 24 hours.
    • The number of votes must exceed 1/4 the census.
    • Polls must be public except for those which must be private due to requirements of higher laws
    • The results of polls which meet these guidelines will be tracked in an official poll index.
    The whole thing is smaller than the standard size post editing window, you don't have to scroll your browser to read it. I don't recall if your version actually does need to be scrolled, just got that impression. ;)
     
  13. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2002
    Messages:
    5,281
    Location:
    Gateway to the West
    Other than that one, looks good.

    This is the first term, and the procedures created here will probably be a template for the rest of the game. The above requirement is just asking to be ignored. Given that there are people with a history of nit-picking when they choose to, let's not create a rule that provides minimal benefit and opens a potential can of worms.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  14. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    (underline added for emphasis)

    Is this a typo and it should say may be restricted?

    If it's not a typo, I don't think it's technically possible now to not restrict polls based on the user group. Even if it is possible, the results of the recent voting fraud investigation have already revealed that at least one non-election poll was affected. If you really want to have the member group affect just elections and not ordinary polls, I think the best approach would be to approach Rik and Chieftess -- but I don't expect them to agree.
     
  15. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Well, you do have a point there. I generally argue against registries because they are not kept up. In this case I was just trying to illustrate how to simplify what Oct wrote, not necessarily to imply all the points are good ideas. ;)
     
  16. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,428
    Location:
    deceiving people with images
    My goal with the official poll index is twofold - to better track those which have been declared official (especially given that we won't always be guarenteed a working forum search, and that it's just difficult to find anything with the Google search) and as a reference tool for the past, so officials and citizens can know with ease what our official stances are and (hopefully) reduce redunant polling. It'd be a simple registry that the Censor maintains with a link to the poll, the poll's question, and it's results.

    As for that, well... Given the grey area I'm working with here, that and all other references to the forum group will be removed for the time being. I did mean to say "may not," as I'd hope we'd notice that an open poll may have been tampered with. In fact, I don't even know HOW to post such polls...

    By the way, thanks for rewrite, DaveShack. The first post will be updated soon to reflect some of those changes. :)
     
  17. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    I noticed this, which would be a violation of forum rules. If someone is banned, nobody is allowed to post material for them.

     
  18. Blkbird

    Blkbird Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
    860
    I cannot find a forum rule to that effect. In fact, the word "ban" doesn't even occur in the forum rules:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumRules.shtml
     
  19. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2003
    Messages:
    11,977
    Location:
    Nijmegen Netherlands
    It's a good tradition to have Non-personal polls Public and personal polls (such as elections and courtcases) private.

    @banned: Banned is banned. It's a punishment (amongst other things). The banned member should not post, not even indirectly. BTW, I'm not sure if a banned member can technically vote, or is technically blocked from voting.
     
  20. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2002
    Messages:
    5,428
    Location:
    deceiving people with images
    It just seems unfair to me, as circumstances will always vary. It could be an indiscrestion in OT that causes, for sake of an example, a three-day ban that causes the person to miss out on the nominating. I think of it as something like prenominating that we usually allow in case of absence.
     

Share This Page