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Term 1 - Chief Justice Elections

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of Democracy IV' started by GenMarshall, Dec 27, 2003.

?

Who will wear the Poofy Wig

Poll closed Dec 31, 2003.
  1. Ravensfire

    19 vote(s)
    48.7%
  2. Cyc

    20 vote(s)
    51.3%
  3. Abstain

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    Although there is no legal basis for this opinion, would it be so wrong to let them hold the office jointly?
     
  2. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Super Moderator

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    Well, there would be 2 CJ's and 2 AJ's. ;)

    This election will require a runoff; I'll post it soon.
     
  3. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    How do you justify a run off though?
    As I have said a run off assumes that there were more than 2 candidates to start with.
     
  4. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Super Moderator

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    Well, it's first of all what we've always done (not a very good justificaton, I know), but it is (I believe) a proposed part of the CoS, so it would make the most sense to hold it. If that election also ties, then we're up a creek; we could either decide it with another runoff, a randomization (such as a coin flip, done by moderators), or we could find out some way for them to jointly hold office.
     
  5. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    But for this run off to be sucessful we are hoping that either someone forgets to vote or changes their mind. That is hardly fair to either the candidates or the electorate.
    I am only speaking from the pov of a citizen but I think we should find a way to allow them to hold office jointly but to only have one opinion.
     
  6. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

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    Peri, for any other office I would disagree, but not for CJ. In important RL courtcases there are also multiple judges. And a judge is what the CJ can be compared with.

    Do the books allow this ?
     
  7. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    The books did not plan for this situation
     
  8. naervod

    naervod My current user title

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    I agree that it would be unfair to the candidates. However, I must turn your attention to the Code of Laws:

    CoL.X.V.A states that "Should more than one citizen tie with the highest totals, a run-off election lasting 2 days shall be immediately posted listing only the tied citizens."

    This means that regardless of how many candidates there were to start, there still has to be a runoff election. Note: This has not been ratified, but is set to be ratified tomorrow if the current voting pattern continues.

    CoL.E.1 sates that "The judiciary is comprised of three members, the Chief Justice, and 2 Associate Justices."

    This means that there cannot be two Chief Justices, simple as that. This has already been ratified.
     
  9. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    Congrats to both Ravensfire and Cyc. As the polls have shown you are both great candidates for this position. I hope we can come up with a good way to settle this situation.
     
  10. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    I agree with you but no one foresaw this current situation. It is difficult to apply laws that werent written to deal with this.
     
  11. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    Hehe...both candidates pick a number between 1 and 10. ;)
     
  12. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    20/20. Hmmm. The People have perfect vision. Ravensfire would make an excellent CJ. I would certainly put my heart and experience into fulfilling the responsiblities of the Office.

    Personally, having both Ravensfire and myself on the Judicial Bench makes the most sense. According to the Legislation we have passed for DGIV, there should have only been one Justice poll. The top three vote getters were the Justices, with the top vote getter becoming Chief Justice. So to me this would be the best way to go. It removes all doubt. The winner of the AJ election would be brought on to fill the last position.

    Either way, Ravensfire, I congratulate you on a spectacular election race. This makes the first election I have bid for that I have not won in four Demogames. You are a worthy opponent.
     
  13. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Super Moderator

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    Here is CoS section III.D.iv, which will be ratified in less than 12 hours, pertaining specifically to the Judiciary:

    iv. Should a tie exist for 1st, the nominees tied for that
    position shall be listed in a poll to determine who shall be
    the Chief Justice.

    Of course, this assumes that there would be only one thread for the Judicial elections, when in reality there were two (the nominations were posted before this was even a proposed section of the CoS). This does create a special case; I think it would be best to default to a runoff election as has been done in many cases (including two person tied elections like this one), and figure out something to do in case that one also ties.
     
  14. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

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    Cyc, Ravensfire I've PM-ed you on this delicate situation. (CC The new Associate Justice Peri)
     
  15. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    I agree that we should stick to our procedure. I also agree with Peri that it doesn't seem quite right as any difference in the result is because someone changed their mind or forgets/chooses not to vote. But in times of "crisis" we need to fall back on our coded laws and follow them until there are no more laws to follow.
     
  16. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    Good idea but there is a flaw. Both of you received 20 votes but in a field of 2. Boots and I received our votes in a field of 5. We can't amalgamate the polls now without causing a whole heap of unwanted problems.
    I personally think the Judiciary would be better off if you both served but spoke with one voice. Although there is no legal basis for this proposal.
     
  17. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    A run off election is just ducking the issue and hope it goes away.
    We should follow the law but we did not write it with this situation in mind. Therfore we should adapt to the situation rather than trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.
     
  18. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Before we all go off on a tantrum, we should remember that this elections polling system was fairly messed up for the Judiciary. The legislation concerning this election polling is CoS Section Y, which I have quoted below:

    III. Polling
    A. Polling threads shall be created by the Election Office in the main forum.
    B. Only accepted nominations shall be listed in the Election poll.
    C. The poll shall list the the nominees and abstain.
    D. Each office shall have its own poll.
    1. Judiciary exceptions:
    i. There shall be only 1 poll for the Judiciary branch.
    ii. The nominee with the most votes shall be the Chief Justice.
    iii. The nominees with the 2nd and 3rd most votes shall be the Associate
    Justices.
    iv. Should a tie exist for 1st, the nominees tied for that
    position shall be listed in a poll to determine who shall be
    the Chief Justice.
    v. Should a tie exist for 3rd, only those nominees
    tied for that position shall be listed in the run-off.

    2. At-Large Governors
    i. There shall be only one poll for all At-Large Governor positions.
    ii. The top X candidates, where X is the number of At-Large Governor
    positions for the election cycle, shall be the At-Large Governors
    iii. Should a tie exist between two or more citizens for the final
    At-Large Governor position, a run-off poll listing only those
    citizens shall be posted. This poll shall last for 2 days.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Having this legislation pass tomorrow morning, it should be used now as a guiding factor in resolving the mess that was started days ago. When this legislation passes, this election poll will become illegal.
     
  19. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

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    I think the fairest is to change the laws to have this office for 2. But to prevent future events like this one we need to change the laws. Perhaps give the senate / president / someone else a decisive vote in case an election between 2 ends equally.

    We can ask the mods to check if the candidates received illegal (unregistered citizens) votes and subtract them. I'll PM DZ for this.
     
  20. Peri

    Peri Vote early and vote often

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    This is not retroactive though is it. We could all resign and submit to a new election for the judiciary couldn't we?
     

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