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Term 5 - Nominations for President

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of Democracy IV' started by GenMarshall, Apr 23, 2004.

  1. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Gimme a break, will ya guys? And BTW, I did NOT declare war. The Aztecs did! :rolleyes:

    So, are there any debates?
     
  2. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Warlord Super Moderator

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    The debates are supposed to be held in the nomination threads, but the acceptances usually don't come in time.
     
  3. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    :lol: Reminds me of the last turnchat of DG1... Babylon declared war on us, and donsig kept on rolling. ;)
     
  4. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Warlord Super Moderator

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    But you were one turn away from victory then, right? ;)
     
  5. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    yeah, and donsig tried to PI me *AFTER* the demogame ended! ;)
     
  6. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Not really CT. As VP I tried having you declared officially absent so I could take over your duties. Even though the Civ III game was over we were in the midst of creating the DG2 ruleset, which I might remind you is the preCURSEr to the, how shall I put it?, #$%@&$#^$ rules we now have. Even way back then I tried warning you all of the problems with too many rules.
     
  7. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    No, not one turn away but we knew it was the victory chat. Ahh, the good old days of arguing over whether we should have a culture win or a spaceship victory!
     
  8. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I would like to formally throw down the gauntlet and challenge my worthy opponent to a duel, er, debate. The Three Books at ten paces! I mean, let's talk about the issues right here in the open before the government officials, er, I mean citizens. (We do still have those, don't we?)

    Furiey, tell us what kind of DP you would be. Are you willing to follow the legally posted instructions of our leaders, even when those instructions are bad. Or would you disregard instructions you considered bad and play the save your way?

    What would you do when there are no instructions posted for a given situation? Would you stop game play and take it to the forums or would you make a decision, implement it and continue playing?

    would you post game summaries so those not looking at the save can participate in the demogame?

    What would you do to increase participation in the demogame?

    I yield the floor to you, my dear opponent...
     
  9. tao

    tao Chieftain

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    How would both of you act if there are conflicts between a governor's instruction and the advice given by the DoI?

    How would both of you act if there are conflicts between a citizens poll and instructions by a official?

    Do you immediately spot what is obviously wrong in the DoI advice for the upcoming turnchat?
     
  10. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Tough to answer these questions without dragging out the latest version of the dreaded Three Books. So, if I were DP I'd have to look through the laws and standards and see just what the legal status of the DoI is these days. Since I don't have time to do that right now I'll base my answers on the version of our laws that I think is current: the DoI is not an elected official and has no authority to post game play instructions.

    1) Legally posted instructions from a governor over-ride any advice given by the DoI or anyone else. Therefore I would follow the governor's legally posted instructions unless I deemed such instructions to be extrememly detrimental to our country. Then I would halt play and bring the issue to the forums for resolution.

    2) Again, legally posted instructions from an official must be followed. As a former President I know that one person cannot (and should not) be responsible for going around and verifying that all posted instructions adhere to citizen polls. As DP I would handle such things on a case by case basis. If I knew there was a citizen poll that contradicted a posted instruction (and no other poll that supported the instruction) then, as in the case above, I would follow the instruction unless it was very, very harmful to our country. Under that circumstance I would not ignore the instruction but would halt play and try to get the issue resolved in the forums. If said instruction were only midly harmful (or even beneficial) I would follow it and continue on though I would certainly point out to the official that he or she was risking a CC by going against a citizen poll. Under certain circumstances I might even fille a CC myself.

    3) "Do these after any needed military worker actions" strikes me as blatantly unconstitutional. As far as I know the Military Minister does not have authority to give orders to our workers. Beyond that I cannot comment on whether the advice given is good Civ II playing or not since I have not looked at the save.

    EDIT: I did some looking around and saw that the Minister of Finance and Labor amendments have passed thereby rendering the DoI and any DoI advice moot. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    I had it posted in a text file, and copied the whole thing. Didn't bother to edit it out. :p
     
  12. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Ah a gauntlet – never could resist a gauntlet – although in the three books at ten paces I’m sure you’d win hands down donsig!

    tell us what kind of DP you would be.
    Well I’ve not actually been DP (other than for a few minutes when I set one province’s queues before the President arrived), so I can only say what kind of DP I intend to be. Yes I do intend to follow the legally posted instructions, even when I don’t agree with them, some of the instructions I have posted myself as FA Minister I have not agreed with either, but they were what the people wanted, so that is what I posted. I will however make the best of the instructions that are given. Initially at least I will probably also be a slow player, although I hope that will improve!

    What would you do when there are no instructions posted for a given situation?
    Well that would depend on the situation of course. In most circumstances I would expect to play on, making the decision taking into account the will of the people from previous discussion in the forums and advice from those present in the chat. I would not expect to stop the chat every time some little thing that had not been anticipated occurred. I would however stop the chat if it was something that did need to be discussed in the forums, something that altered our plans or which required the will of the people to be consulted. The chat should certainly not be used to replace the forums. I would ask myself – if I was a citizen would I want to have a say in this? or would I just say get on with it! If I believed the answer to be get on with it – then get on with it I would!

    would you post game summaries…
    Simple answer – Yes. I believe that’s one of the things an official should do and have done so thorough both terms as FA Minister – look in both the Term 3 and Term 4 FA threads.

    What would you do to increase participation in the demogame?
    I don’t have all the answers to this one, but I believe that this needs to be a friendly place to encourage new people to join, yes we want “discussion”, but the primary focus needs to be on the game, not solely on the rules – the rules are enablers to the game, after all, we’re here to have fun! Making game information accessible to people should also encourage new participants. It’s very off-putting if the first time you post you get jumped on for missing some vital information!

    How would both of you act if there are conflicts between a governor's instruction and the advice given by the DoI?
    The advice given by the DoI is just that, advice, an unelected office under the President, therefore instructions from the Governor, the elected official who posts the legal instruction in the TCIT takes precedence. But this is really a moot point as next term worker actions will come under the Minister of Finance and Labour anyway.

    How would both of you act if there are conflicts between a citizens poll and instructions by a official?
    It’s the responsibility of the official to ensure that their posted instructions reflect the will of the people. I remember the discussion when the rules concerning what was a legal instruction were being written, there was talk of having the DP or VP check that the instructions posted were the will of the people, but it was felt that there was enough for the DP to do, and it would also take away the responsibility from the official, hence we ended up with what we have now. If you’re allowed to post instructions and you post them within your remit and in time, what is posted is therefore the legal instruction. I would hope though that I would be able to find a way to make the best of things, and in extreme circumstances there is always stopping the chat. I do believe that you have asked this to be looked at tao – I await the results!

    Do you immediately spot what is obviously wrong in the DoI advice for the upcoming turnchat?
    Well at first glance there are some things I wouldn’t do like that (move workers to both road and rail onto a tile on the same turn – none of them can do anything this turn, but if you just moved the roading workers in, the ones for railing could do something else this turn, then move in next turn once the road is built and rail on the same turn). Other advice may well be in conflict with the Governors’ instructions. Haven’t looked at these next to the save though – got to do my own instructions now!
     
  13. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    The reason I wanted them to build a road BTW, is because there's an army in that one city that I'd like to be able to attack next turn. ;)
     
  14. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    I understand that CT, and my way you'd still get your road and rail done in the same time (can't have armies standing around doing nothing after all), but the rail workers could do something else on the first turn rather than just moving into an unimproved tile. It's certainly simpler moving them all in at once though, and if you have more workers than jobs then it doesn't matter anyway!
     
  15. tao

    tao Chieftain

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    Furiey, that's what I wanted to hear. :goodjob:
     
  16. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I would like to delve a bit deeper into something you said:

    How much weight would you give to the advice from those at the chat?
     
  17. Furiey

    Furiey No Longer Just Lurking

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    Advice is advice, I can take it or not, but the will of the people is what we're trying to achieve. If that advice was contrary to what I believed the will of the people to be then I would go with the will of the people. The chat is fun, the advice helps the DP play the game and lets everyone there feel involved, but the forums are where the real decisions are made.
     
  18. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I like it, I like it. Please don't stop there. Give us an idea of where we find the *will of the people*. Is it only to be found in polls, for instance?
     

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