Term 6: Domestic Office - Exponential Potential

[Donovan Zoi]

Domestic Leader: Donovan Zoi
Domestic Deputy: Zarn

Will update by 2/3/02.

Please address any domestic issues here.


Term 5 - Fionn McCumhall

 

[Donovan Zoi]

RESERVED

 

[Donovan Zoi]

RESERVED 2

 

[Donovan Zoi]

RESERVED 3

 

[Zarn]

Donovan, we need links to the former terms or at least the last one. If you need any help, just ask.

 

[Ehecatl Atzin]

Hail Donovan Zoi! As our domestic leader, I find it only apropiate that you open sessions in the Fanatikan Grand Senate (ie start the thread), as the site where governors can discuss ideas that affect the provinces and Fanatika as a whole. Thanks.

EA

 

[Chieftess]

DZ - I ask that our next city be named "Columbia" in honor and memory of the Columbia Spaceshuttle disater. The Civ2 Demogame has done the same.


Also, I'd like to see a poll on the next 4 cities now so that we don't have a short turnchat again.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

I am all for that idea, Chieftess.

How do we sidestep our laws to do so? Can I just post a poll?

Regarding our settler issue, I have gotten Governor Cyc to stand down on one or two of the settlers, but will post a poll regardless. Please look for it Tuesday AM CST or sooner, if I get the chance.

 

[Shaitan]

@DZ - There's no way to do it in the rules. Actually there is but it would require changing laws for this one time event. Not what we really want to be doing, no matter how much of a nice thing we're trying to do.

So...I have awakened my infrequently used mod powers and posted a poll that (if enough players approve) will authorize the DP to name the next city "Columbia".

 

[donsig]

I humbly request that the domestic department cease funding the rushing of all city improvements (except for libraries) until our military has been properly upgraded. I realize this request will delay the completion of a market in my beloved Palanthus. Still in all, our defences are obsolete and our need for riflemen right now far outweighs our need for markets and courthouses.

At the very least we should upgrade our three spearmen and 17 musketmen. This represents a cost of 1040g which we should have in 2 turns given our current treasury and surplus levels.

Your servant,
donsig
Mayor of Palanthus

EDIT: Please read the last two issues of DFZ if you haven't already. Links are in my signature below.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Sir donsig,

You have beaten me to the gate. I was just going through the figures to determine where we could find our best upgrade opportunities and how I could break the bad news to you about Palanthus. However, we have already reached the same conclusion.

The three spears you speak of are in Plexenburg, Ise and the Highlands. I will gladly upgrade all three within the next four turns. I have also located ten immediate musket upgrades that I will authorize for the Preturn. The other 21 will be phased in as treasury allows. I will try for a pace of two per turn until complete. Since we no immediate military emergency, I hope this acceptable. I would still like to focus on city growth whenever possible.

I know you haven't mentioned it here, but that still leaves the issue of the pikemen. I will be posting a poll shortly regarding my plan. These are estimates but I would try my best to maintain these figures. Please let me know what you think:

We currently have 47 pikemen

8-10 upgraded to Riflemen (800-1000g)
12-15 disbanded to help Rifleman production
5-7 disbanded to help improvement production
15-20 kept to defend Interior cities and Eastern Wall.

This is a short-term plan that can be started right away if it has support. As you can see, this plan emphasizes military over domestic improvements and will keep Fanatika strong.

You will also be happy to know that, as Domestic still oversees the build queues for all of New India et al, I have added walls to the queues of cities that won't be seeing Size 7 anytime soon. I will talk with Grand Admiral CivGeneral to discuss the deployment of troops behind those walls.

Rest assured, donsig. We should have a fully upgraded military force long before we get to Replaceable Parts. But then again that tech is a pipedream considering the government we are currently in.

Funny, had I known that the people had no interest in maximising this great land, I would have chosen a less optimistic title for this thread.

 

[Shaitan]

I would definitely not go along with disbanding the pikes. They can do fine duty as inner city garrisons and be upgraded slowly there. The shield bonus of disbanding a pike is negligible.

The Democracy idea may have been shot down, steppe on, kicked over the side of the cliff and sunk but there were several quips of support for Republic. I'd recommend you switch your efforts to that government form.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Originally posted by Shaitan
I would definitely not go along with disbanding the pikes. They can do fine duty as inner city garrisons and be upgraded slowly there. The shield bonus of disbanding a pike is negligible.

And the cost to upgrade one to Rifleman is astrnomical. It would cost us 4700g to upgrade our pikes. My plan only calls for disbanding 20 of them, mostly to help build other rifles. I feel this is a very reasonable compromise.

The Democracy idea may have been shot down, steppe on, kicked over the side of the cliff and sunk but there were several quips of support for Republic. I'd recommend you switch your efforts to that government form. [/B]

Sorry. Republic won't speed up our workforce, will be slightly more corrupt, and will have the same military penalties as Democracy. Plus, like you said, why make the change if we may need to change again? I would call out to the proponents of the Republic to endure the growing pains(which will be minimal with all eight luxuries) and stick with Democracy til the end.

 

[Shaitan]

What is better? 47 riflemen or the privilege to research a tech for ourselves? Researching techs costs an enormous amount more than purchasing them but that is part of the overall plan. I say keep buying techs and upgrade those pikes!

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Shaitan.......

We can't even buy Steam Power right now. That is how desperate our tech situation has come. Our only hope of buying them is that our rivals get so far ahead in the tech race that they can part with it cheaply.

So, which is it, Shai? Rifles now or Panzers later? If we stay on the current path, one of our neighbors will eventually sell us our Panzer diagrams as they aim their missles our way.

 

[Cyc]

Not that I am as anti-Democracy as Shaitan is, but the Allies did have tanks well before the Germans had tanks or Panzers. It's just that the Panzers were the cream of the crop for a long while.

I really have nothing against disbanding a good chunk of the Pikes, especially the ones that will help build Riflemen. Out with the old, in with the new. As long as we appear to be Militarily superior to the AI, that's what counts.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

Not that I am as anti-Democracy as Shaitan is, but the Allies did have tanks well before the Germans had tanks or Panzers. It's just that the Panzers were the cream of the crop for a long while.

Actually, they only had about a one turn advantage.

C. 1900, wars were still being fought with Riflemen and and Cannon. Artillery was invented c. the 1910 Turn, but no one understood how dangerous the upgrade was. In WWI, the Germans invented the Infantry unit in the 1914 turn and upgraded all of their infantry in 1915. The British and French were slaughtered for three turns as they built their own Infantry units and plenty of Artillery to back them up. They generated one or two units of Tanks for the 1917 and 1918 turns, but the Germans quickly learned to use Artillery against them (a sound tactic the AI seems unable to comprehend). The war ended late in the 1918 turn, not because of the Tank units, but because the Allies mobilized the Americans and shipped about 200 fresh Infantry units across the Atlantic right about the time the Europeans -- Democracies, Communists, and Monarchies alike -- were too bankrupt and war-weary to continue. Then everyone stopped building tanks for about twenty turns, until rowdy militarists in several countries forced a general re-armament. At this point, the Germans got around to building panzers. Before then, they had neither the need nor the gold.

As bad as Civ III usually is in directly modelling our history, it comes out rather well in this case. What is missing is the ability to cross oceans in a rational length of time. I'm working on an article covering this glitch.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

Okay, who was the wise guy who pushed my history button?

 

[Shaitan]

You need to disband 12 pikes to build one rifleman.

Every 2 pikes is "worth" more than a rifleman in figuring army strength.

A rifleman costs 80 shields to build. A pikeman costs 100g to upgrade. That is equivalent to a "rush cost" of 1.25g per shield.

I would not like to see a single pikeman disbanded.

 

[Feodor Ardent]

You need to disband 12 pikes to build one rifleman. Every 2 pikes is "worth" more than a rifleman in figuring army strength. A rifleman costs 80 shields to build. A pikeman costs 100g to upgrade. That is equivalent to a "rush cost" of 1.25g per shield. I would not like to see a single pikeman disbanded.

In support of the plan, I don't consider this a situation where a purely mathematical calculation of this sort can resolve the issue. Domestic and/or military policy has to balance shields vs gold vs "rush cost" vs time and momentum vs presence.

Right now, the vast majority of our military units have the same defensive strength -- 3 -- that some of our enemies could have deployed in their cities 4000 years ago. We need to do better than that to deter the Persians and Chinese, and we need to do it in some reasonably cost effective matter. Having a bunch of obsolete units cluttering up the countryside is better than nothing, but expending their quantity in the interests of quality is quite a LOT better than nothing.