[TERRAIN_OVERHAUL] More Terrains / Terrain Features / Bonus Ressources [WORK IN PROGRESS]

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by raystuttgart, Nov 15, 2020.

  1. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Hi guys,

    This is just Brainstorming for now. :)

    But in this post here, @devolution posted about adding another Terrain.
    I am actually not sure if he was kidding or not. :think:

    I am currently reworking the maps anyways for "Large Rivers".
    So if we want to add further Terrains - we should do it now.

    PART 1: Marsh?
    Spoiler :

    e.g. Marsh (this idea I actually like - because it does not require a new Yield, Profession, Bonus Ressource ...)
    (Graphics: Dark Green version of Swamp)

    It had already been discussed in RaR and was also suggested several times in our issues (in Git Hub).
    It is basically mostly an "immersive / atmospherical" Terrain.

    Basically it is the "Swamp of Grasland".
    (Meaning the less productive variant.)
    • It would have less Food / less Tobacco / less Hemp than Grasland.
    • On Hills there would be Herbs (Renaming Coca) -> Thus no additional Yield or Profession
    • On Hills of course also the Bonus Ressource "Herbs" (Renamed Bonus Ressource Coca)
    • Renaming the "Coca Collector" to "Herb Collector"
    • Just like Pioneers Action "Drain Swamp" (creating Savanannah) we would also have "Drain Marsh" (creating Grasland) - using the same Button graphic
    • It would be spawned in the same Lattitudeds as Grasland (maybe close to Rivers / Large Rivers)
    • Maybe we might even have a new Type of Terrain Feature on it (just do not know what it could be) - probably not necessary though because it could use "Light Forrest"

    ---------

    PART 2: Related ideas on Yields?
    Spoiler :

    We could give the "Medical Office" a second new Profession "Apothecarist" producing new Yield "Medicine".
    The expert would still be our "Renowned Medic". (Thus no new Building Graphics and no new Unit Graphics required.)

    We could even use this to make our feature "Health" more interesting. :think:

    To balance the 2 lines of Yields in City / Europe Screen we would need to find one other Yield so it matches the 2 lines.

    We could simply introduce "Coloured Wool Cloth" (as 2nd Profession / Yield in Dyers House)
    (Building: Dyer's House, Expert Master Dyer --> no new Expert / Building / Bonus Ressource, ... needed)

    That would actually solve 2 issues:
    (Without any new Units, new Buildings or Bonus Ressources.)
    • "Boring Coca" gets replaced by more interesting "Medical Herbs / Medicine".
    • "Coloured Wool Cloth" which has been requested and logically really been missing - final makes it

    ---------

    PART 3: Plains?
    Spoiler :

    Plains (this I just put for brainstorming and because @devolution mentioned it) :dunno:
    (Dark brown version of old "Paririe" - before Schmiddie recently improved it)
    • Lattitudes between "Grasland" and "Prairie"
    • Food: just like Graslands / Prairie / Savannah (for balancing)
    • 1st Plantation Yield: Barley (which would then be removed from "Grasland" and "Prairie"
    • 2nd Planation Yield: ???
    • ...
    Problem:
    This would probably just make sense if we add further Plantation Yields.
    We do not really want that - because we already have so many. :undecide:
    (Possibly requiring further Professions, Experts, Buildings, Bonus Ressources, ...)

    I have no idea yet what to do with it ...
    But if team and community have a good idea and would really want that, I am ok with it. :dunno:

    ---------

    @Schmiddie
    You have the last word for this in my opinion, since you would need to create the new graphics. :thumbsup:

    ---------

    Go crazy and brainstorm. :)
    Maybe something interesting might come out of this. :dunno:
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
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  2. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Actually I am kind of confused because of the terms "Marsh vs. Swamp". :think:

    In German it is pretty easy to differentiate between "Moor" and "Sumpf". - It is basically the question "Is it permanently under water or not?".
    Which is kind of in the nature of Germans because we like to be quite precise.

    Can a Native English speaker tell me the correct differentiation between "Marsh" and "Swamp"?
    Which of the terms is better suited for "temperate climate" and which one for "tropical climate"?
     
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  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    By the way:

    @orlanth had once created really nice Terrain graphics here.
    (Maybe we could use them for our new "Marsh" - or whatever the better name is.)

    Spoiler :



     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  4. Red velvet

    Red velvet Chieftain

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  5. Red velvet

    Red velvet Chieftain

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    A swamp is wetlands with woody growth. A marsh is more of a grasslands wetland. It can occur in any climate
     
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  6. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    Just look up the wikipedia pages for marsh and swamp.
    Fits what Red velvet wrote too.

    The next question is what does it mean for the game? Sounds like a marsh turns into a swamp if we add a feature to it. That's not what we want for gameplay meaning the naming is incorrect.
     
  7. Mr. ZorG

    Mr. ZorG Prince

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    for Russian translation there is no difference between Marsh and Swamp. so I don't even know how to translate it for the game))
     
  8. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Ah ok, it is basically this picture here:

    The idea "permanently under water" (waterlevel) from German fits perfectly well to this. :)
    So this time the German / English interpretation is basically the same.

     

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  9. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    I could live with Marsh and Swamp and I would also agree to add Plains in addition to Prairie. Plains should have a bonus for farming (food) and have the yield barley. Maybe we could shift cotton to plains?

    Grassland: Hemp, Tobacco, Grapes, Breeding al animals
    Savannah: Coffee, Coca/Herbs,
    Marsh / Swamp: Sugar
    Plains: Cotton, Barley, Breeding
    Prairie: Red Pepper, Breeding

    However, the graphic you mentioned ray does currently not fit to ours. It is part of another set, but I have some in mind that could fit - and also the vanilla graphic of the plains is not that bad.

    As I wrote internally I would not prefer a new trade good, but if we introduce medicine herbs as good, I would prefer to leave one of the existing ones out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  10. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Let us please not shift too much. :)

    It is perfectly fine if Every Terrain has:
    (Apart from Food / Breeding)
    • 2 "Cash Yields" on Flatland
    • 1 "Cash Yield" on Hills
    Considering "Marsh":

    I would really like to make it like in Original Colonization (from 1994).
    • Swamp --> low value variant of "Savannah" (little Sugar / little Coffee) --> being able to transform it into Savannah (by our "Drain Feature")
    • Marsh --> low value variant of "Grasland" (little Tobacco / little Hemp) --> being able to transform it into Grasland (by our "Drain Feature")

    Hills on Marsh --> almost the same as Hills on Swamp --> gives "Herbs" (renamed Coca)

    Summary:

    For Marshland absolutely no new Yields or changes to other Terrains will be needed.
    (We will simply rename "Coca" to "Herbs" and everything is fine.)

    ------

    It is a very simple, clean and logicaly consisent change.
    (Heavily assemnling like it was in "Original Colonization".)
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    The more problematic part is:

    What to do with "Plains"?

    It would make a lot of sense to give it "Barley" (and remove it from "Grasland" and "Prairie").
    This would actually improve balance of "Grasland" and "Prairie".

    But "Cotton" and "Indigo" I really do not want to change because it would imbalance "Prairie".
    (Nor do I want to touch any of the other 2 Main "Cash Yields" of Gasland and Savannah - for the same reason.)

    So what about the rest of "Plains"?
    • Will it just have Food and "Barley"? --> Might be ok.
    • Maybe a bit more "Breeding" than other Terrains? --> Might be ok.
    • Maybe a bit more Food than other Terrains? --> Might be ok.
    • What will Hills on Plains give? (Wine?)
    • ...
    Summary:

    If we do it like that "Plains" will become "Food and Breeding" Paradise, with "Barley" (for Beer) and "Wine".
    (Does not sound bad for a German actually. :) )

    So we would also not need to give it any new Yields. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
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  12. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    Sounds good. What whith the herbs? Coco turn into medical herbs? What will be the effect? will the doctor use them?
     
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Summary:

    We would not add any new Yield at all with this.
    And we would not remove any.

    We would have:
    • A bit more Nostalgica (reminding of Original Colonization)
    • More eyecandy (Nice new Terrain Graphics)
    • Improved Balancing (mainly "Barley")
    • Plains offering a kind of different strategy (less Cash Yields but more Food)
     
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  14. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Yes, for several reasons:
    • Improving Balancing (of "Coca" / "Coca Collector") --> They were almost worthless until now, now it will be more common as "Herbs" (in "temperate region" and in "tropical region")
    • Being able to put it onto "Hills of Marsh" immersively --> It would not fit as "Coca"
    • "Coca" sounded too similar to "Cocoa" and people were sometimes confused
    • It opens us the possibility to do something with it for "Health" (I still need to work on the details of the concept though)
    I have ideas in mind how to use it for "Health".
    Still thinking about the best way to do it. :dunno:

    My original concept was planning to introduce a new Yield "Medicine".
    (Now I started thinking about doing it without another Yield.)

    Reason:

    We always need equal numbers of Yields (for City / Europe Screen).
    Currently we do not want to add new Yields.
    But I also do not want to remove any.

    Summary:

    My original concept with "Herbs" --> "Medicine" does not work.
    (We would need to add "Medicine" + 1 other Yield.)

    This would however made "Herbs" a bit more intresting.
    (Because it would be manufactured to Medicine.)

    At some point I was considering to add "Peanuts" for Plains, but it would be just as boring as "Coca" / "Herbs" currently is. :(
    My concept somehow does not match yet ...
     
  15. Schmiddie

    Schmiddie Emperor

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    Maybe the Doctor could use the herbs and get a bonus on health?
     
  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Possible of course, we do not need to have "Medicine" first. :thumbsup:

    Makes my "Health" concept a lot easier as well and also easier for AI. :)
    (I will not need a Profession to turn "Medical Herbs" into "Medicine".)

    Sounds good.
    See, brainstorming is useful. :hug:
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  17. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    Ok, to summarize:
    • We want to introduce Marsh (Low value "Grasland" that however gives "Herbs" on Hills)
    • We want to introduce Plains (Food and Breeding Paradise, with less Cash Yields)
    • We will not have more Yields (we will just rebalance "Barley" by removing it from Grasland and Prarie but putting it on Plains)
    • We will rename "Coca" to "Herbs" to use it for "Health" (and "Coca Planter" to "Herb Collector")
    • By doing so we get rid of balancing issues of "Coca" / "Coca Planter" (low value because not common enough and no strategic meaning)
    • We regain a bit of nostalgica from Original Colonization by finally bringing all its Terrains back to Civ4Col by WTP !
    • We get more eyecandy by more beautiful Terrains from Schmiddie
    • Draining Feature finally gets more useful (becaue we can now Drain "Marsh" and "Swamp")
    • And I will have to redo the Maps anyways for "Large Rivers"
    Sounds like a good concept to me !!! :grouphug:
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
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  18. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    While we are talking about what yields are produced where, I would like to point out a balance issue. Hemp is only produced on grassland. I consider this to be an issue because it's a strategic resource needed to produce certain units. This means it can't be replaced with a different yield just like you can't replace lumber or ore for something else. However while forests and mining is widespread, you can easily end up without grassland at all, meaning the only source is trade. That is a significant disadvantage. Sure you can buy in Europe, often at a reasonable price, but we should give the player options.

    I propose fixing this by adding hemp to other terrains too, but with a production penalty. It should be on a level where you can get it if you have to, but grassland is still strongly encouraged. Something like -50%, rounded down and no bonuses.
     
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  19. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    It is actually not that bad, because "Grasland" appears both on North America and South America.
    Never ever had an issue with it. :)

    It really does not match immersively.

    Hemp (for Ropes) is really only "temperate regions" - the only Terrain that fits to it is "Grasland".
    And we will again destroy my carefully built balancing / distribution of Terrains / Yields. :sad:

    "Hemp for Smoking" is a different story though. ;)
    And I guess we will not add it to the mod. At least not as "strategic Yield". :mischief:
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2020
  20. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder Supporter

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    By the way:

    I will postpone to rework the maps until we have implemented the 2 new Terrains "Plains" and "Marsh". :thumbsup:
    (Otherwise I will waste time reworking the maps twice.)

    Since it is all just XML (once we have the Terrain Graphics) it will not be a big issue / long delay for "Large Rivers".
     

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