Teutonic Order and Prussia

[AbsintheRed]

Alright, these are the basic thoughts on this:
While the HRE is represented by a united Germany in the game, a separate Prussia civ might be controversial.
On the other hand, a Teutonic Order based civ might still be good, at least if we want to spice up the eastern region of the map.
The question is how the relation between the Teutonic Order and Prussia should be added. More precisely: how much of this relation should be represented
Note that this is only for the current version of RFCE, 2.0 will be handled differently

RFCE++ more or less followed the Teutonic Order = Prussia approach, at least most of the civ qualities were mixed:
The Teutonic Order/Brandenburg-Prussia/Kingdom of Prussia - start in 1224 AD, last UHV date in the 18th century
Leaders: Hermann von Salza and Frederick the Great
UP: The Power of Cameralism: Start in Theocracy and no instability from anarchy.
UU: Death's Head Hussar - the feared elite light cavalry of Frederick the Great, a stronger Hussar.
UB: Public School - The first modern school system, it brings both stability and enlightenment among the population.
UHV's:
- The Northern Crusades: Control Lithuania, Livonia, Estonia, and Pomerania in 1410AD.
- Seven Years' War: Collapse or conquer two cities from each of Austria, Muscovy, Germany, Sweden, France and Spain between 1650AD and 1763AD.
- Enlightened Despotism: Settle a total of 15 Great People in any combination, including Great Generals, in your capital.

The other approach is that every detail is only included from the history of the actual Teutonic Order (and from the Duchy of Prussia, when it was a separate entity from Brandenburg or any other HRE state)
Something like this (very basic concept):
The Teutonic Order/Duchy of Prussia - start in 1224 AD, last UHV date somewhere in the 16th century
Leaders: Hermann von Salza and Albert of Brandenburg-Ansbach
UP: The Power of Cameralism: Start in Theocracy and no instability from anarchy.
UU: Teutonic Knights or different Teutonic Soldiers in some form
UB: The Teutonic Order had a highly developped social care system and a very high priority (even higher than spreading their faith) on health care. It says they had "Firmarien", a special kind of hospitals/nursing homes, which could provide healt and/or growth bonusses.
UHV's:
- The Northern Crusades: Control Lithuania, Livonia, Estonia, and Pomerania in 1410AD.
- Kulmer Recht: a law which regulates the systematical founding of cities of the Teutonic Order. Could be linked to founding an appropriate number of cities in a specific time or growing a number of cities to a specific size (making use of the "Firmaries"). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulm_law
- Thirteen year war: resist the destruction of the Teutonic Order, keep a specified territory intact for a given time

 

[AluminumKnight]

Give me 100 reasons why the Teutonic Order and Prussia are completely separate Civs and should be treated as such, and I'll give you 1 good reason why they should be combined: Simplicity. To be honest, I'd love to add 20 civs to RFCEurope and have a map chock full of spawns, respawns, regime changes, etc. but this is not practical. Balance, lag, amount of work, etc.

I'd rather have any of the other civs in RFCE++ than a separate Teutonic Order and Prussia, and I'd also rather have a combined civ than only 1 or the other.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Oh but for some people whether a game is fun or playable does not matter. Historically authenticity (or rather, their specific version of it) is all that matters.

I think I'm going to stop playing RFCE and stick to reading history books from now on. Because that's what this mod will eventually become, apparently. A set and "correct" history of Europe with no influence whatsoever from the player.

 

[Wessel V1]

The debate about larger maps, more content and more civs will always be driven by that. I also vote for one Prussia + Brandenburg + Teutonic Order civ. It's a game after all.

 

[Hippo8085]

I don't usually post in this particular subforum, but have been watching this particular debate rather closely.

My view on it is simply that the civ in RFCE++ worked. The civilization proposed for some sort of split not only seems poorly crafted due to potentially repetitive goals, or seems like it tries to come as close as it can to being a combined without truly being it. For example, a sort of grow x cities to size y is the stepping stone for a great person goal. A territory retainment is similar to the seven years war goal.

In addition, the AI Teutonic Order civ will simply end up taking the role of Prussia toward the late game, so for a player to be required to do the same makes sense.

 

[Crossphazer]

Keeping it continuous is probably the best thing to do. Now the challenge lies in having the civ shift from the East to the West somewhat dynamically.

 

[gps]

Oh but for some people whether a game is fun or playable does not matter. Historically authenticity (or rather, their specific version of it) is all that matters.

I think I'm going to stop playing RFCE and stick to reading history books from now on. Because that's what this mod will eventually become, apparently. A set and "correct" history of Europe with no influence whatsoever from the player.

Well, the whole purpose of the original RFC mod was to make Civ less random a better let it reflect real world history. And I found the version 1.1 quite a lot of fun and very playable with the HRE not unrealistically splitting up into two competing entities.
Sorry for taking part in a discussion and making a point opposing to what you think best, not quite sure how I earned your constant hostile comments...

 

[AbsintheRed]

Oh but for some people whether a game is fun or playable does not matter. Historically authenticity (or rather, their specific version of it) is all that matters.

I think I'm going to stop playing RFCE and stick to reading history books from now on. Because that's what this mod will eventually become, apparently. A set and "correct" history of Europe with no influence whatsoever from the player.

Alright, that's more than enough. Stop whining
I even made a poll to help me decide which approach is more popular

Both versions could be made to work both historically and for a good gameplay

Because that's what this mod will eventually become, apparently. A set and "correct" history of Europe with no influence whatsoever from the player.

I will decide what the mod will become, with the help of merijn
Does it really seem that we drop gameplay reasons for historical reasons? Even once? I really doubt that

I'm always aiming for a fine balance between historicity and good gameplay
Sometimes it hard to make it work well of course
In this Teutonic Order case, it's rather controversial which direction is better to follow

 

[iOnlySignIn]

I will decide what the mod will become, with the help of merijn
Does it really seem that we drop gameplay reasons for historical reasons? Even once? I really doubt that

That's good to know.

And I found the version 1.1 quite a lot of fun and very playable with the HRE not unrealistically splitting up into two competing entities.

Oh but HRE has always been split up into two competing entities in RFCE from the very beginning. The two entities are called Germany and Austria. If you can't accept the split of Brandenburg-Prussia from HRE, then you should never have accepted Austria's split from HRE either and should never have played RFCE in the first place. Oh wait, you only played it once, so it's still not too late. You can still save yourself from the un-historicity of it all. The X button is in the upper right of your screen.

 

[gps]

Oh but HRE has always been split up into two competing entities in RFCE from the very beginning. The two entities are called Germany and Austria. If you can't accept the split of Brandenburg-Prussia from HRE, then you should never have accepted Austria's split from HRE either and should never have played RFCE in the first place.

I allready said in the other thread, that Austria vs. Germany from my point of view is enough to represent the competing factions in the HRE. And while Germany and Autria are two different things, Germany and Brandenburg/Hohenzollern/Kingdom of Prussia are not. Brandenburg was part of the HRE. Brandenburg was part of the German Confederacy. Brandenburg was part of the German Empire of 1871 and up to today is part of Germany. The only time that Brandenburg was ever separated from other parts of Germany was in the time of the GDR - which probably is not in the scope of this mod. So it makes total sense to make it a separate Civ. Who cares about minor details like what really happened in history...

Oh wait, you only played it once, so it's still not too late. You can still save yourself from the un-historicity of it all. The X button is in the upper right of your screen.

Another one of these incredibly mature postings of yours. Yawn...

 

[Askiya]

I personally prefer the gameplay representation of Prussia as Brandenburg-Prussia and the Teutonic Order. Judging from the poll it would appear that the majority of players (67%) prefer this as well. I mean its just a game. If we wanted the whole thing to be historically determined, then not only would we have to change pretty much every civ, but it would also be much more boring. I don't see why we should do that in the case of Germany either.

 

[swinnend]

I think it is just too weird to have both Prussia and Germany existing at the same time. That would be like Holland against the Dutch, or the English against the British. After a point in time, the Teutonic order should just be left there to be divided among its neighbors.

If you do implement, make sure the 'German' civilization is never called German, but Holy Roman Empire. After all, Prussia was partly outside. You could then make it a goal to conquer Germany, and German-speaking parts of Austria: "Großdeutsche Lösung"!

 

[embryodead]

For RFCE 1, Teutonic Order + Duchy of Prussia (I voted wrong, so it should be -1 from first option and +1 for the second, sorry)... I don't care about Brandenburg in this context, since to me RFCE would be better if it ended earlier and had longer Middle Ages instead. Fragmented HRE needs a bigger map.

 

[AluminumKnight]

If you do implement, make sure the 'German' civilization is never called German, but Holy Roman Empire. After all, Prussia was partly outside. You could then make it a goal to conquer Germany, and German-speaking parts of Austria: "Großdeutsche Lösung"!

You struck gold here. Simply change the name of Germany to HRE. Now when the correct era comes along, it's just like Prussia conquering the HRE states with the goal perhaps of uniting Germany.

 

[Crossphazer]

Around 1500 the HRE has no business being as united as it is. Anything to help fragment it is appreciated.

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Germany and Autria are two different things, Germany and Brandenburg/Hohenzollern/Kingdom of Prussia are not.

Oh I'm sure every German in 1526 would agree with this sentiment. Your time traveler's perspective would persuade all of them to believe that Prussia is the eventual answer to the German Question, not Austria.

What are you going to tell me next? That Britain is different from Ireland, but not Northern Ireland? That France is different from French-speaking Belgium, but not Corsica? That in 1800, the United States is different from Canada, but not Alaska? Sure, tell me more about how you're a Time Lord. Tell me more about the future.

What breakfast will every poster in this thread eat next Monday morning? You would know of course, because it's all historical inevitability to you, isn't it?

Another one of these incredibly mature postings of yours. Yawn...

Oh go ahead. Go personal if you want. I'm sure your view on other things will be just as amusing as your views on history.

 

[alpav]

Oh I'm sure every German in 1526 would agree with this sentiment. Your time traveler's perspective would persuade all of them to believe that Prussia is the eventual answer to the German Question, not Austria.

What are you going to tell me next? That Britain is different from Ireland, but not Northern Ireland? That France is different from French-speaking Belgium, but not Corsica? That in 1800, the United States is different from Canada, but not Alaska? Sure, tell me more about how you're a Time Lord. Tell me more about the future.

What breakfast will every poster in this thread eat next Monday morning? You would know of course, because it's all historical inevitability to you, isn't it?


Oh go ahead. Go personal if you want. I'm sure your view on other things will be just as amusing as your views on history.

I don't understand why you're getting satirical. Just stick to the discussion at hand.

 

[Mr_Hobo]

I agree. Perhaps the Teutonic goal relating to law could be to build X amount of courthouses across their territory? Or maybe a courthouse could be their UB?

 

[Hippo8085]

. And while Germany and Austria are two different things, Germany and Brandenburg/Hohenzollern/Kingdom of Prussia are not.

1230, 1525, 1618, 1701, 1861

We all know what those five years are. They are the increasing German-ness of Prussia. I think the best convincing argument would be as to why the two states are separate at each of these.

1230 - Establishment of the State of the Teutonic Order by the Teutonic Knights, them and the people around them later becoming the people of Prussia. This state was not within the Holy Roman Empire, at the time the governing body of Germany.

1525 - Establishment of the Duchy of Prussia by Poland. The Hohenzollerns end up ruling this area, and while they were very much German, the state they ruled was not. In addition, the capital stayed at Königsberg, a continuation of the old Teutonic Order.

1618 - Union of Prussia and Brandenburg by diplomatic means. Capital remains at Königsberg, outside of traditional Germany. The majority still lies outside of Germany, and is more of a fringe state, like Poland is at the time.

1701 - Capital moves to Berlin. Despite this, the nation is still ruled by the same line of Hohenzollerns, who by now are certainly not German, but Prussian. Saying that they are German because that is their country of origin would be like me saying that I am English, despite my family having been in the Americas for over 300 years.

1861 - German unification and establishment of the Empire. While this should not be taken into consideration as it is not in the scope of the mod, it completes a point. Prussia is the unifying and leading state. It would be more appropriate to say that at this point Germany is ruled by Prussia and a Prussian king than that Prussia morphed into Germany. In fact, I would say that the German state was Prussia up until much of it was eliminated from their borders after the Great War.

In the early stages of this post, I found that the shift from the Teutonic Order to Prussia could be viewed simply as a dynastic change, which are often accompanied by a bit of fighting as well (eg. English York to Tudor) and we certainly don't change England for every one of those.

 

[gps]

1618 - Union of Prussia and Brandenburg by diplomatic means. Capital remains at Königsberg, outside of traditional Germany. The majority still lies outside of Germany, and is more of a fringe state, like Poland is at the time.

As I allready pointed out in the other threa, in 1618 the ruling line of Prussia ended:

"As in 1618, Albert Frederick had no surviving male heirs, the co-enfeoffment of 1569, confirmed by the Treaty of Warsaw in 1611, allowed his son-in-law, Elector John Sigismund of the Hohenzollern branch in Brandenburg, to become the duke's legal successor, thereafter ruling Brandenburg and Ducal Prussia in personal union."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_prussia#Transition_into_Brandenburg-Prussia_in_1618

So the Brandburg/Hohenzollern guys basically inherited Prussia - and I am pretty sure they did not move to Königsberg at that occasion. This was no "union", it was a takeover...
And while they later called themselves "Kings in/of Prussia" I am pretty sure they would not have denied beeing German - as would all the other Swabians and Bavarians and Saxon etc. around. There was a good reason why the HRE was called "Holy Roman Empire of the German nation".