That's it - Liberty is complete utter worthless trash

Here's a question I believe I'm in the minority of for my answer: What's the best follower belief for tall? Obviously Pagodas are best for wide, but for tall I think it's Religious Community. And I feel I remember people saying they thought Pagodas were best for tall as well.

Well for tall I'd definitely go for Religious Community no doubt about that.

Pagoda's are still a solid option but if you have 4 cities the maximum you can get is 8 happiness, 8 culture and 8 faith. Not huge but the extra happiness can be useful if you're growing really fast.
Swords into Ploughshares is also great if you're able to stay in peace.
 
Religious Community is good for all empires. In fact, I'd argue is more valuable for larger empires. More cities to take advantage of that production bonus and more hammers to multiply. Plus in a larger empire you can't grow or get as much gold midgame so faster build times is very welcome.

For a tall empire religious community is of course strong, but unless you're using it for wonder-spamming that 15% production bonus can be replaced by the gold to buy every 6th building. I find the tithes belief to do exactly the same thing in gold. I feel that swords into plowshares is waaay better since you can't get that kind of growth any other way, and it multiplies the food on all those early cargo ships meaning more of everything. You have to stay peaceful though, but that is usually not too hard if you stayed small.

I will admit though RC is far easier to use. I actually prefer it, I just don't think it works as well as SiPS as an early-game advantage to tall.
 
It comes back to how Civ5 is a game of filling buckets, and in an overwhelming majority of games, not picking tradition is too great a nerf if you're playing for the fastest finish. It's not very good for rushing opponents due to having few viable tech paths in the game, all of which favor Tradition.

Liberty only works then as a second tree (but if you are playing optimally, you will be taking Rationalism well before you'd finish Liberty), and Patronage is better for a "dump" tree for pre-Renaissance policies.

Liberty does work better on larger maps though.
 
I disagree that liberty doesn't work for early warring. I think it's better than tradition for it.

If you mean that tradition gets you a tech lead faster, yes, that's true, but that's not an early rush. It takes too long to get a generation ahead on military tech for Deity and most players end up waiting for Xbows.

A true early rush you rush the AI at the same tech level as them as soon as you can--usually composite bowmen but even before in some cases. Liberty is better for this because of quick settlers and an extra hammer per city to build troops with. So your total rate of early troop production can be higher without sacrificing much infrastructure. In liberty a 3-pop city on on a hill with republic can work another hill since you can't afford to grow anyway and have great production. With tradition if you stop to work any mined hills you slow your growth and lose your advantages. Besides the slight hammer advantage and faster expos and workers, there's happiness problems. Even if you can grow a tradition city up and get enough production to produce good troops without sacrificing your early growth (main tradition advantage) growing your core tall given tradition's tenets means too little happiness to conquer very many cities.

A very standard way of doing early rushes is to REX quickly, slap down like 4-6 cities with liberty, build monument, maybe granary, then comps. You can make more then in tradition so the rush is more sustainable. Tradition grows you core well but you're squandering nearly all of its advantages if you rush early and conquer a big puppet empire because very few of the policies benefit more then the first 4 cities. Liberty on the other hand is set up for conquering big by making every city cost you 1 less happiness via meritocracy when you connect it in via roads, giving every new city +1 hammer, and reducing the cultural penalties of the empire. You can annex and build stuff faster.

Obviously honor opener is the best for early rushes then either of them, but it doesn't have enough infrastructure benefits to sustain itself other then the garrison culture and happiness so conquering the entire world with just honor is not reliable. Works with some civs like Huns though.

Most domination players on multiplayer I think start with liberty and mix in honor at the same time. When you do this you get the garrison, xp, and combot bonuses of honor + the culture, happiness, worker speed, and hammer bonuses of liberty. Also going liberty+Pyramids is the only way you can get 1-turn tile improvement repairs meaning you can farm pillages and heal your troops if you bring workers under them on the front-lines. You can also build roads under them in 1 turn. It helps a lot.

Good luck conquering a lot of early cities and not falling behind without liberty or honor--it's much harder due to happiness shortages and missing the 50% xp bonus. With both you get effectively 2 free happiness just from your garrison and road, and +3 culture. Stuff you were probably gonna do anyway. ;) You can often have enough happiness and strength between the two to conquer the entire world, capitals and satellites, on standard/pangaea far before tradition reaches artillery.

Tradition/honor works ok but has less of a synergy in my opinion and certainly isn't as set up for ruling that empire which is why most players end up sniping capitals in rapid succession rather then really conquering the world.

Tradition is only good for conquering late-game in my opinion. It doesn't have the sustain to take a lot of early cities. Basically the way to conquer with tradition is stay small and tech till you get ahead on tech and get to artillery then start sniping capitals.
 
A throwaway comment by nimling pulls the feature discussion right to the forefront!

Thread tl;dr: lots of arguing about tradition v Liberty, me and Chum and dan love liberty and sixty4half, noto and sugardady hate Liberty. Then there are a lot of probably more reasonable people taking some kind of middle ground. Either way don't even get us started on the advantages of Liberty; suffice it to say "not picking tradition" is not "a massive nerf".
 
I'm pleased with how my Liberty game with the Aztecs turned out: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=678184472 I only settled 2 expos, but I started warmongering early, built the Pyramids, and connected everything with roads. I had trouble with happiness in the mid-game; Aztec cities grow so fast I had trouble slowing them down. Also I couldn't build any circuses, and someone beat me to Notre Dame.

Looking back at it, I should have annexed a few more of my puppets. (I annexed the capitals but puppeted or razed almost everything else) I also should have taken pagodas for my religion.
 
wow, so many lakes! Was this an ancient lakes map or something? :)

Shame that Aztec growth advantage is not really in your favor with world conquest.

The way their advantages lie, the most synergy you can get out of them is to take advantage of early UU and UA by taking out one neighbor early when they have only 2 cities or so for culture-farming and free workers. Jags are cheap AND powerful so you can mass-produce like 5-6 of them and take a capital if you are fast. Then peacefully filling in the rest of the land between you and growing like mad for a science or culture win. :D

Terrain setup: settle on a hill!
Policy choices: liberty
Build order: Jag --> Jag --> shrine --> Monument? --> Jag --> Jag --> Jag

You can throw a monument in there if you want, but Aztecs can get away with skipping it and building after the jag army if you plan to war as they get culture for killing. I recommend making the monument if you have a decent production capital though as it does help with the timing of the policies in liberty. Starting on a hill makes a massive difference in the Jaguar and shrine build times.

You don't need to worry about settlers or workers till after you cap the first capital. Send you first 2 jags in scout mode till you locate your target--targets in forest or with forest between are excellent choices. Then immediately DOW and start stealing workers and sending them back to the capital, prioritize pillaging, esp. growth tiles to keep the population small. Two of them should be able to make a kill or two as well for some early culture. Keep guerilla war up during the shrine/monument phase and then start sending more Jags. Done fast enough before walls and they grow taking down their capital with 4-5 jags is not hard. Deity this is slightly more challenging since they have a 2nd city to send support but still doable. You just may need more Jags. The timing and culture boost from conquering someone should be just about right to steal their 2-3 workers for yourself and open the settler policy, then you can start spamming them like any liberty game. Due to jungle bias and woodsmen promos jags are like scouts in the immediate terrain around Aztecs. One scout is still valuable on pangaea though, but the less people you know when you destroy your closest neighbor the better tbh.

Even though it slows your conquest by 10 turns I recommend getting that early shrine up. A pantheon boost around the time when you take the foreign capital is perfect as you have 2 starts to choose a pantheon for and can often find enough faith to get a nice religion to support you new liberty empire. Plenty of space to settle too since you wiped out the closest competition :D
 
If it's available, the single most important thing to do with religion is pagodas for wide play.

Follower beliefs for wide:
  • Pagodas
  • Mosques
  • Religious Center
  • After this debatable but IMO usually Asceticism or Happy Gardens
Some may place religious centers above mosques. I wouldn't.
 
completely agree with inthesomeday's list. I also really don't understand why people say Swords Into Ploughshares is good for Tradition.. it isn't. It's not good for any VC.. Even if I had massive leftover happiness I would take Religious Community in 10 out of 10 games. The bonnus from SIP is just so insignificant.

If you have say +30 growth in your capital and +20 growth in your expos, a realistic lategame scenario, this yields 4.5 food for the cap and 3 food for each expo, meaning you clock in at around 14 food in total.

That's not a lot and this is lategame. The earlier in the game the worse this belief gets. If any of your city has less than 12 growth you're actually better with Feed the World.

Also you have to take into account that food is an early investment, meaning early food is to be valued much higher than lategame food, which is almost negligible. All of this beliefs strength comes lategame, which makes the already bad stats way worse in reality.

Now lets compare this to a belief that is actually good: Religious Community. In a lategame capital with Ironworks, Nuclear Plant, Hydro Plant, Factory, Workshop, Stables, Forges, Stone Works and what have you I often get more than 100 Hammers. But lets assume you managed 100 Hammers in your capital and 50 Hammers each in your expo (this is very low) for my standards, but just for the sake of giving an example.

You get 15 Hammers out of the capital and 7 (rounded down) out of each expo. In total that is 36 Hammers. Compared to 14 food that is more than twice. Also lategame Hammers are of higher value than lategame food in my opinion.

I see no reason to ever take SIP unless you have a coastal empire, you are playing Aztecs or Venice, or you are using it together with Feed the World because all of your cities have terrible growth.
 
I see no reason to ever take SIP unless you have a coastal empire, you are playing Aztecs or Venice, or you are using it together with Feed the World because all of your cities have terrible growth.

It's also garbage because you can't control when you're going to be at war. Just because you don't press the "Declare War" button doesn't mean you're not going to be at war.

So, I mean, yeah, it's totally fine if you're playing on Settler and can't be DoW'd. But if you're playing on a level where the AI can challenge you? Total trash.
 
The most important thing for Aztec settles is adjacent to a river or lake, not being on a hill. The hill is second.
 
I took Religious Community in this game because (1) I've never tried it before, and (2) I really wanted Petra and I know it's tough to get at Immortal and Deity. By the time I enhanced my religion, pagodas and mosques were taken. I did buy them in Copenhagen, and if I had used that captured GP (and one of my own) wisely I could have bought them in 4 more cities. I used him for a holy site, which I eventually had to destroy to keep Dido from stealing it with a general.
 
I've heard people say it's garbage, but I would think in a tradition game you have the excess food for it to be significant to your finish time. When I said "best" I didn't mean objectively "best" in raw benefit, but that it was the most significant to improving your science finish times which is what people seem to care about most.

I much prefer RC because it's basically lots of free hammers, but if you are going for a speed science game SiP operating on your early food cargo boats alone is 1.2 food in each city. Usually you have a little more then the boat food because all tradition players try to maximize early excess food and SiP rewards you the more you do this. My early cities often have 10 food to go with after the cargo ships so that's 1.5 extra food. The standard tradition approach for a fast finish time is to have coastal capital with 2 coastal expos so I don't think this is that unrealistic. already that 1.5 is awfully close to the max you can get from feed the world at 2. Compared to Feed the World? Raw early bonus is potentially 2 food in each city, true, but only AFTER you build shrine and temple and costs you 3 gold in upkeep. SiP is free with no maintenance caveat and is breaking even quite early. Midgame you start to match or even pass FtW. Lategame it's a lot of growth as you say, I wouldn't call 4 extra food insignficant, but even early it isn't bad if you are using food cargo boats--as most players do. So I don't see how it's "trash". It isn't objectively that powerful compared to other things but it isn't bad. when it says 15% to growth it isn't lying. That's exactly what it does since your growth comes from excess food. So if you can stay mostly peaceful no matter what your food input is you are gonna grow an extra pop every 6-7 citizens compared to a game without it. Am I understanding this correct? A benefit like that hardly seems like trash unless you are struggling to grow at all.

But maybe I am just inexperienced? This is theoretical, I've never played a tall SiP game. Peaceful growth and teching isn't really my style--just a bit too boring. The peace caveat is the biggest, but in most of my small/tall games I was able to avoid war 90% or more of the game turns played and end them quickly if they did start. For a small/tall approach as well you are less likely to be warred early when that growth is most significant as well because you don't get expansion diplo penalties and can bribe AI to be doing other things. It's true you can't avoid war entirely, but you can minimize it.
 
I think my puppet cities grew so fast after I captured Temple of Artemis (and they probably had floating gardens already.) Not only are they over 20 population, they are still growing quite rapidly.
 
Yeah the temple of artemis is one of the best growth boosts in the game. Far better then swords into plowshares. That 10% operates on ALL of your food, not just the excess like floating gardens and SiPs. Unfortunately its pretty inaccessible on Deity usually since the AI start with the tech and workers, so not much help to fast finish times. :( Sometimes you get lucky though...
 
Floating gardens affects total food, I'm fairly certain.
 
Both ToA and Floating Gardens operate on gross food; every other growth bonus applies only to net food.

Also, if you are still talking about Tradition, keep in mind that the Tradition finisher's +15% growth bonus applies to all of your cities, not just the first 4 (only the first 4 get the finisher's aqueducts). With ToA and the Tradition finisher, your puppets will keep growing quickly, even while staying on gold focus, which can present a real happiness challenge during the pre-Ideology days. If you want to avoid that growth, you have to be pretty aggressive about destroying your puppets' farms and building trading posts on low-food tiles.
 
thanks for that info!

2nd question: does the SiP multiplier operate AFTER floating gardens and artemis? So will I get greater growth out of SiP too if I build floating gardens? I would imagine it does if the first is applying to the total gross food. This would mean Aztecs with SiP are better then anyone else with SiP.
 
Yes, the computations are separate. ToA and FG gross up the food totals, then deduct food consumed by citizens and specialists) to get net food, and then apply growth modifiers to the resulting net food (positive modifiers, like Trad finisher, SiP, etc., and any negative modifier for net unhappiness, if your empire is unhappy).
 
Top Bottom